StainLess Steel MediaGraf & SonsTitan ReloadingInline Fabrication
RotoMetals2WidenersLee PrecisionRepackbox
MidSouth Shooters Supply
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 30

Thread: Water quenching boolits

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    232

    Water quenching boolits

    Tell me if this makes sense to you guys. I'm just sitting here at work thinking and reading
    Water quenching boolits as everyone knows increases hardness provided you have enough antimony in your alloy right. I think i saw some articles stating that in order to completely harden lead alloy boolits would have to be baked to 400 for an hour and then be water dropped. BHN goes up as they age after. How quickly it depends on the amount of antimony and arsenic but lets assume both are present enough that this alloy hardens. Doesnt really matter what the BHN is at this point.
    So If I PC my boolits at 400 for 15mins then water drop wouldnt be long enough right? Or is it enough time to heat up surface of the boolit but not the core in which case outside would gain couple BHN from water drop but middle would still remain soft. Sort of how knifes are heat treated. Hard on the outside so it has a sharp edge but soft in the middle so it doesnt break from being too brittle?
    I would think that having boolit thats hard on the outside so it doesnt skid and soft on the inside in order to protrude properly would be very desirable. These would function same as FMJ but would be pure lead alloy. I'm just not sure if there is enough mass to really get this kind of effect. I'm sure there are other factors involves as well but I'm curious to see what you guys think.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    bangerjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    out of here, wandering somewhere in the SW.
    Posts
    8,707
    PC elimiates the need for old-school water hardening------at least in my book and from my experience. One must change thier mindset with modern technologies.

    And, no, the 10-13 minutes you cure PC is not enough to gain the longer cycle heat treating done with water quenching of non-coated boolits.

    And from my research and reading, Pb-based alloys behave a whole lot differently than Fe-based alloys as far as surface hardening and heat treating. I have done a lot of heat-treating of machine tool cutters and tools as I have a vacuum HT furnace in my shop. Fe-based alloys change from one state to another (martensitic/austenitic). Pb does not do that!!!!

    Just stick with PC and forget needing harder Pb underneath. If PC is applies and baked properly, it will NOT come off and acts (sort of) like the FMJ's you mentioned. I cast 10-13 hardness for ALL my PC'd boolits.

    Good luck!

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy OldBearHair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Conroe TEXAS
    Posts
    279
    Question: So you bake the cast boolits one hour, water drop to increase hardness, then PC and back in the oven a few minutes. What does that do to the hardness of the boolit?

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,823
    I have put a sample 3 or 4 bullets in the oven and kept jacking up the temp till they slump. Back off maybe 20 degrees. Powder coat, put in oven at that temp and leave them maybe 30 minutes and immediately water quench. Bullet harden nicely and still are powder coated with no problems in shooting them. I put tray and all in the water because they all won't release from the non stick tin foil.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    232
    Quote Originally Posted by OldBearHair View Post
    Question: So you bake the cast boolits one hour, water drop to increase hardness, then PC and back in the oven a few minutes. What does that do to the hardness of the boolit?
    Sorry if I'm not clear.
    I just powder coat, bake for 15mins and water drop but I was wondering whether heat treating it for that extra hour either before or as it bakes PC was worth doing in order to increase BHN. I havent done any testing but I thought I saw posts of someone doing this and claiming that water dropping even after short 15min bake did increase BHN. I might be wrong though.
    I think Jim answered my surface hardening question so that only applies to Fe based alloys.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    267
    I like dropping boolits in water just because you can deal with them sooner. So when casting, immediately after, I just dig all the boolits out and lay them out on a towel to dry for the evening. When PCing, I drop the PC'd boolits in the water. Then I can take the pan and stick it on the concrete floor of my garage. By the time I put out some towels and dig the boolits out of the water / dry them off, etc the pan is ready for new boolits. Then I load the pan, PC and stick it in the oven. Then I have 30 min to resize the last batch. Kind of keeps me moving... I have been taking some brass that needs resized/deprimed out there too, so I resize/deprime and then trim brass or re-prime, etc while waiting on the bake.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,723
    You have to leave them in the oven for an hour, then drop in H2O, the colder the better. Has to do with mobility of atoms in a solid - need time to move around, then quench to freeze in proper locations. WD then cooked for a short time & AC are the same as AC.
    Whatever!

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    479
    I bake bullets for 90 min at 230C/440F then drop them immediately into a bucket of cold water.

    I leave them for at least 30 min before drying then store for at least 48 hours before testing hardness.

    The last batch I baked, took the BHN from 11.5 to 20.9.

    ukrifleman

  9. #9
    Moderator



    JonB_in_Glencoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    Posts
    10,756
    Quote Originally Posted by marek313 View Post
    SNIP...

    Or is it enough time to heat up surface of the boolit but not the core in which case outside would gain couple BHN from water drop but middle would still remain soft.
    It doesn't work like that.
    What will happen is you will get irradic results in BHN from one batch to another.

    Have you read this?
    http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    232
    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    It doesn't work like that.
    What will happen is you will get irradic results in BHN from one batch to another.
    Makes sense now. Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    Yes I did Thanx

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy Boogieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Western Ar.
    Posts
    425
    If you coated the boolits , then cured them at 400 f for 1hour would the extended curing time hurt the coating?
    The 3 people a man must be able to trust completely are his gunsmith his doctor & his preacher ..,his gunsmith for his short term health ,his doctor for long term health ,and his preacher incase one of the others mess up.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master fredj338's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kalif.
    Posts
    5,505
    I have found a slight increase in bhn by water dropping my PC bullets after 15m @ 400. It isn't much but something.
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
    NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Grmps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    2,740
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieman View Post
    If you coated the boolits , then cured them at 400 f for 1hour would the extended curing time hurt the coating?
    try it and let us know, I've baked PC for 30 min with no problems but never 1 hr.

    If you PC after heat treat/water quench, you will lose what you gained water quenching, the 10 - 15 min @ 400 will remove what you gained.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,823
    You can PC and heat treat at the same time. People who say one can't either hasn't tried it or they are just parrotting someone else.
    If it is done correctly it can be done.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

    gwpercle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Posts
    4,032
    Size the boolits before you heat treat and quench harden them....sizing the hardened boolit is hard to do and cold working the lead surface softens it.
    Gary
    Certified Cajun
    Proud Member of The Basket of Deplorables

  16. #16
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,513
    At least 25 of the samples which were heated for 5 and/or 10 minutes and then quenched as described above also were sectioned, ground, polished and hardness tested both at the surface and the core. These tests revealed that the hardness was essentially uniform throughout.

    The samples which had been hardened as described were also analyzed for metal content and had the following metal content:
    Bottom of page. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html

    Heating Time Brinell Hardness (min.) (range)
    ______________________________________

    5 min- 19.6-21.3 bhn
    10- 25.5-28
    20- 24.3-25.5
    30- 28-29

    The oven temperature has to be just below where the cast bullet will slump from to much head.

    See alloy used also.

    metal wt. %
    ______________________________________

    Copper 0.038
    Arsenic 0.16
    Antimony
    3.0
    Tin 0.25
    Zinc 0.0001
    Cadmium 0.0001
    Nickel <.0001
    Bismuth 0.018
    Silver 0.0038
    Tellurium
    0.0015
    Sulfur 0.0005
    Iron <.0001
    Lead Balance

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,823
    Hard is a relative term. Hardness is also a relative term. Hard compared to what. AC wheelweights are hard compared to Elmer Keith's favorite alloy of years gone by. Lyman #2 is hard compared to AC wheelweights.
    Linotype is hard compared to Lyman #2.
    The components of the alloy tend to make the real difference in hardening.
    It is no chore to water quench most alloys with at least 3 percent antimony to surpass Linotype but the WQ ALLOY WILL BE TOUGHER. if it is much above 4 percent it will become somewhat brittle but Linotype will be much more brittle because of the much higher antimony content.
    After quenching wait at least 72 hours to get to close to max hardness. After 72 hours the alloy won't gain any worthwhile amount.
    Hard, hardness=relative term.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy Aunegl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    S.E. WI
    Posts
    211
    I water quench cast bullets because I got tired of getting blisters on my finger tips.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy S.B.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    528
    I'm not sure how you guys wives will understand you using her oven to bake your bullets or how much extra time you have on your hands but, I've only got 24 hours in each day and don't have the extra time to bake mine. They go right from the mold to the water for cooling. You see, I like to shoot and reload for this end.
    My $.02,Steve
    "The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
    Life member NRA, USPSA, ISRA
    Life member AF&AM 294

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy Drew P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    NW USA
    Posts
    645
    I water drop mine for the same reason as 44blam. I don’t see how y’all can air drop bullets without them getting damaged from hitting each other while so hot. So I like to water drop to preserve their shape. Then I hitek at 400 and ice drop of final coat. But, if that’s not helping hardness as stated then I’ll quit I guess. I could bake longer on final coat, but the colors darken and aren’t as pretty. For pistols this is not really important but I want to make the best rifle bullets I can. I need to do more testing I suppose.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check