327 federal heavy bullets

[megasupermagnum]

...I have read about Brian Pearce suggesting SP primers instead of SPM for better ES. I do know I'll see flattened primers from 1/2 grain differences of powder. ...

I read that article in handloader too. I think he has other problems going on. While I have seen a few loads with the crazy ES's he is writing about, it is anything but the norm. You can see in my post above, I just am not seeing any huge differences between primers, and I'm not seeing huge ES's. This is with pretty much any bullet. Where I was seeing problems was with light bullets 100 grains or so, with slower powders. That's half the reason I kept going up in bullet weight.

There will never be a conclusive, all encompassing answer on what primers to use, and when. I use Federal standard primers with the 310 grain Lee in 44 magnum with H110. It performs the best. And here we are seeing some spectacular results with small rifle primers with flake powder in the 327 federal.

One problem I ran into with Starline brass in particular. It seems the annealing is questionable on some batches. I could feel bullets seat to different forces between each. I think Brian Pearce is looking in the wrong place.

Starline exchanged all my new brass for free, and the new stuff is much better.

[megasupermagnum]

You guys are killing me! I went to the powder place and saw everything but Blue Dot!

Now I’ve got a new quest just to find powder. So far my highest power loads have utilized either Accurate #7 or a surplus non-canister version of Accurate #9. As I get up into the higher end of the power range, my first signs of pressure have been pronounced flattening of the primers... cases still ejected easily.

Another decision I need to make is whether I want to buy another mould just to pick up 10 grains of additional weight. Since the Accurate 31-135S is cut short for the S-7, it will give me lots of spare room in my K-frame, and of course length is a non-issue in the Blackhawk. One of the reasons I had for going with the 327 over the 32 H&R was to have the maximum flexibility of the power range in a straight side 32 revolver cartridge, and this 135 grain plug seems to be knocking on the door of that room!

One more question here; has anybody tried these loads with Winchester SP or SR primers? They have been my go to for the last 8-10 years or so. I’ve got some Federal Match primers (SR) but I prefer to save them for bench rest.

Thanks for all the info, and keep on posting!!

Froggie

There is more to primer flattening, making it questionable at best. As I've said, one of my SP101's severely flatten primers with factory ammo, and handloads as well. Yet my GP100 hardly ever badly flattens primers with anything besides the Federal 100. In that I look for primer cratering instead. Even loads I consider unsafe, I still don't see total flattening. I just glued a strain gage to my Henry rifle, so in the future I may pressure test some of these loads.

While I love Bluedot, there are plenty of other powders that can work for you. Lots of people love AA #9. I never got spectacular results with it, but it is an option. H110 is of course a great power. IMR 4227 is a little bulky for this purpose. I admit to never having tried 2400, although it should do really well here. Even something like HS-6 or 800x might do well.

I have tried Winchester pistol primers, although not in a side by side test. They worked fine. I need to redo the above test with the Federal 100, I could easily include both the SP and SR Winchesters.

[megasupermagnum]

wsp f100 wsr f200

Ok, I finished the second primer test. Due to a dwindling supply of lubed bullets, I could only shoot 7 shot strings. Same gun, same testing same load of 7 gr bluedot and 137 gr SWC. All powder charges weighed, same as before. The big difference was the temperature. Before it was about -5 outside, today it was over 35.

Winchester small pistol
AV- 1221 fps
ES- 27 fps

Federal 100 small pistol
AV- 1208 fps
ES- 28 fps

Winchester small rifle
AV- 1217 fps
ES- 46 fps

Federal 200 small pistol magnum
AV- 1211 fps
ES- 57 fps


The first thing that stuck out to me is that the velocities were all lower, even though it was about 40 degrees warmer. That got me thinking. I believe last time I took the ammo out of the warm house, into a warm truck, and right to shooting. Today The ammo sat in the truck bed for a few hours before shooting. Even though the outside temp was warmer, the ammo temp was likely cooler. For what it's worth, the average of the averages last time was 1244 fps. Today it was 1214 fps. So the temperature is definitely a variable, but it's the consistency I'm concerned with.

So here we see again that all primers do a respectable job. I even found some Federal 200's I didn't know I had. Again the SP magnum primer was the worst performer, although still good. Again we see where velocity seems to have no relation to primer. The small pistol primers were both the slowest and fastest primers. This does make me wonder if small rifle primers really are stronger than pistol primers at all.

Now here is the bad news, I had one pierced primer with the Winchester small pistol primers. This is the second time I've had this happen, and the other time was these Winchester primers as well. I have never pierced a primer in 327 federal with any other primer. It didn't hurt anything, it just got some dirt on my firing pin. I would not discount WSP on this alone, however, as it could just be my batch, just keep it in mind. WSR could work well. This isn't a high pressure load. If I had to guess, it woluld be 30,000-35,000 psi. I don't use Winchester primers, as they are always middle of the road. That and they seem to seat so hard.

All of this was to pick a primer to stick with. I have always used the CCI 500 for testing, as it is very tough, just like a rifle primer. Now that the results are in, I will shoot for accuracy. Numbers are good, but hitting the target is the ultimate goal. I will be testing the CCI 500 verses the Federal 100 verses the Federal 205.

Also a semi-update on the 167 gr WFN. I had loaded up some an shot groups at 50 yards. It is no tack driver, and I never expected it to me. Accuracy was in the 6-8" range. Being as I was getting sub 3" groups at 25 yards, this tells me they are not fully stabilizing. That's not the end of it though. I have other powders, as well as a 16.5" barrel rifle to try them in.

[cwlongshot]

As always great information. THANK YOU FOR THE EFFORTS AND THE POSTING!

CW

[megasupermagnum]

Well I finally got the primer shoot off done. Like a dummy, I forget the pistol rest. Instead I used some sand bags. It wasn't my best shooting ever, but plenty consistent. It was a good day in that I maintained a crisp view of the sights. Some days I get bug eyed after awhile. Not today luckily.

Anyway, the test was simple. It was the same load as before, 7 grains Bluedot with a 137 gr SWC at 1.605" OAL. The only variable was the primer. I loaded 28 of each primer, and fired in 7 shot groups, in my 7 shot GP100. I then averaged the groups. To reduce any variable of shooter fatigue, barrel heat, etc. I fired the groups concurrently. I shot 7 of the CCI, then Fed SP, then Fed SR. I then mixed them up Fed SR, CCI, Fed SP, and so on. Distance was 50 yards.

CCI 500 SP- 4.34" average
Federal 100- 4.69" average
Federal 205- 5.44" average

So what did I learn? Either CCI 500 or Federal 100 produce nearly identical results. The CCI 500 just narrowly beat out Federal 100, but it's worth noting it was only because of a single spectacular group of 2 3/4". The Federal 205 small rifle on the other hand doesn't shoot as well. Each group had 5 or 6 in a group similar to the SP primers, but always had 1 or 2 fliers. This was not me. At least not every time. As I said, each group was quite consistent. The CCI 500 had one great group of 2 3/4", but the worst was only 5". The Federal's ranged from 3 3/4" as best, and 5" as worst.

Being as the Federal 100 has about half the velocity ES as the CCI 500, that is likely the primer I will use in this load from now on. It just goes to show that velocity spreads mean next to nothing for accuracy, at least at close range. I'm sure differences can be seen at 200 yards.

All of my work up until this point has been with Starline brass, which has an inconsistent annealing. I recently purchased a healthy supply of Federal brand brass, and the difference is night and day. Now the question is how much of that quality will show up on target. Hopefully we will see, as my next test will be a lube test. Carnauba Red vs TAC 1 vs deluxe Xlox.

[DHDeal]

A question on your primer test experiment. Will you fine tune the powder weight with the Federal 100's? I have almost no experience with Bluedot.

Coming from a 600 yard Benchrest background, I would find a load that gave good numbers and accuracy, then fine tune it further. We can't play very much with seating depth with these bullets, but with the 327 case being so small I suspect .2 grain increments would be telling.

You are providing very good information and it is appreciated.

The 327 hasn't acted like my 357's or the larger calibers at all to me. It's a whole different critter. My shooting partner calls mine a Las Vegas wh0re (no matter how much money you throw at it, it'll still break your heart). I'll get back to it as soon as my cylinder gets back from FA.

[megasupermagnum]

Well, 7 grains is optimal with the CCI 500 primer. I could try adjusting with the Federal just to see. In this particular load, .2 grains has not amounted to anything so far. If I quench the bullet, I've been able to go as high as 8 grains and maintain the same accuracy.

[DHDeal]

I figured you had played with the powder charge considering all of the other data you have supplied us, but asked because I didn't remember the whole thread.

I'll have to get some Bluedot and AA9 to try. Due to the case size, it seems that powders in that power range may be the optimal for the 327.

Again, thanks to everyone for the data provided in this thread as it is one of the most in depth dealing in heavy cast bullets in the 327.

[dangitgriff]

Agreed, thanks to the OP and others for the info shared here.
My 3” SP101 keyholes at 10 yards with 115-grain SWC’s, shoots great with 100-grain jacketed. I’m thinking undersized boolits could be the culprit, as I didn’t measure them. What would you consider the maximum diameter for .327? What else should I check for?
—Griff

[cwlongshot]

What does/ do the cyl throats measure Griff?

CW

[dangitgriff]

Cylinder throats are .314...
Grooves measure .312 at the muzzle.

[megasupermagnum]

Technically the maximum size is what will still chamber. Likely .316" or so. More practically .314" is what I run in all my guns. Every one of my handguns have throats just over .314". All of them pass a .314" pin gauge, none of them pass a .315" gauge. My Henry rifle has a throat just over .315" (I forget the exact .0001").

I've shot plenty of .313" without problems, but if you are sizing .312" or smaller, that could be the problem. It's also a good idea to pull some bullets and check that they are not being sized down by the brass. I used to shoot a 118 grain SWC plenty, even loaded light in my LCR, likely doing no more than 700-800 fps, I never once had key holing, so the bullet length/weight is not the problem. It wasn't until I pushed all the way to a 167 grain bullet that I found instability. All of my guns, rifle included, are 1:16" twist.

[cwlongshot]

Use a 314 bullet to start.

Ideally the throats are same or slightly larger than bore. It’s wen the throats are smaller than the bore the real fun ensues.

Try a .314 bullet that’s what I have been using as well as 312 drop thru my cylinders. 313 mostly falls thru with maybe. 35% needling just a touch. 314 stays in cyl in 95% of the time.

I’m shooting very respectable groups out to 65ish yards. I have t checked farther yet. But I can hit a softball every time offhand at 65 yards with my cast and BlueDot. (It’s one of the only powders I have worked up so far)

Good luck

CW

[dangitgriff]

Thank you, gentlemen, will do as advised.
R/Griff

[megasupermagnum]

Here is an interesting update for you guys. I had recently given up on my Starline brass, and replaced it all with 2000 brand new Federal brand cases. Right away I could feel the difference when loading. Federal is far more consistent on their annealing.

I always said that neck tension is one of the most important aspects of handgun ammo. Well the proof is in the pudding. I loaded the same exact load as tested above. Fed 100 primers, 7 grains Bluedot (all charges weighted), 137 grain SWC, 1.605" OAL. I again shot the same 28 shot average, 4 groups of 7 shots each at 50 yards.

The result: 3.04" average

These were amazingly consistent. Maybe I had a fantastic day, but there is no doubt the Federal brass is a big part of this. What this really did was get rid of the fliers. The smallest group was 2 3/4" and the largest at 3 1/4".

I am finally content with this load. Next up is to test this load with TAC1 vs Carnauba Red VS Xlox lubes. The only bad thing about this is that right before testing I was shooting my 41 magnum that I couldn't get to shoot well at all. Well I finally found a load that shoots amazing. 11 grains 800x with the Arsenal 220gr RF went 2 1/2" at 50 yards for the days best group.

800x has always been my ace in the hole. I've been more than happy with my star performer Bluedot, but if anyone was not, 800x should be a great powder in 327 federal too.

[cwlongshot]

Observations now that I have two 327’s...

I have read and read again that many loads shot flattened primers. I speak of Factory and heavi(er) loads and this is exactly what I found with my Bisley. Nothing crazy but still fairly flat primers even on my moderate hand loads. Nature of the beast I guess.

Forward a month or so I have a Birds head now. I shot a few of the work up loads that I hadent yet pulled. Zero issues and loads right to same Max that was safe with Bisley... Only much less flattened primers!!! Now the RB grip isn’t as recoil friendly so I have loads tailored for each gun. But nice to know all
Loads are safe.

But odd from stand point almost zero flattened primers.

CW

[megasupermagnum]

Observations now that I have two 327’s...

I have read and read again that many loads shot flattened primers. I speak of Factory and heavi(er) loads and this is exactly what I found with my Bisley. Nothing crazy but still fairly flat primers even on my moderate hand loads. Nature of the beast I guess.

Forward a month or so I have a Birds head now. I shot a few of the work up loads that I hadent yet pulled. Zero issues and loads right to same Max that was safe with Bisley... Only much less flattened primers!!! Now the RB grip isn’t as recoil friendly so I have loads tailored for each gun. But nice to know all
Loads are safe.

But odd from stand point almost zero flattened primers.

CW

It is odd. In 327 I currently have an LCR, SP101, I gave my other SP101 to my dad, and GP100, as well as the Henry rifle. Every one of them shows primer flattening different. My old SP101 really flattened primers, and my new SP101 not as much. My GP100 barely shows it all.

Headspace, chamber roughness, primer type, pressure, etc., they all effect the flattening you see. It is an unfortunate truth that primers are a rather poor indicator of pressure. I've got my rifle set up with a strain gage. I should try pressure testing some of these loads to see where I'm at.

[cwlongshot]

Agreed -00%. I remind folks of that all the time.

“Ooh primer swipe or flat primers I’m overloaded!!” Well maybe maybe not what primers do you use? “Well all I had was SP and they fit fine in my 223!!”

Or same complaint... “ I ran out of CCI 550 and all I had was Federal 100’s!”

And there ya go...

Some of us know primer cups come in different thickness and some primers are “softer” than others.

I have used every brand. Std and mag and while Mag do reduse flattening they don’t eliminate it even in otherwise medium at best powder charges. I loaded up some 60g lightning bolts. Pushing 1900 FPS. Primers looked. New, only with a dimple! . Just odd compared to what normally occurs in dozens of other calibers. Hasn’t bee a problem, cases always slide out of chambers and guns shoot well.

CW

[DHDeal]

I've noticed my FA97 327 can flatten a primer like no other revolver I own, and that's more than a few.

As I've just got this revolvers bugs worked out, I'm still working up loads and it likes H110 and the GC Sledgehammer. I was running a primer test using 11 grains of H110 and Fed 100/200/205, and CCI 500/550/400. The Fed 100's looked like I spread peanut butter in the primer pocket, but the 200's and 205's looked like a normal fired primer. All of the CCI's looked similar to the Fed 200/205. Luckily I suppose, but the Fed 100 load wasn't even close to the most accurate so I'm done using it in the 327 with H110. All that stated, all cases would either fall out of the chambers or need only the slightest touch with the ejector rod to fall out.

I've read elsewhere that the CCI 400/550 were one and the same, and this load test again says it's true (at least in accuracy).

When I can, I'll take the chronograph to see what my numbers are.

[megasupermagnum]

Warning, the following is not to be consider load data.

I tried a new to me powder today, Alliant Power Pro 300-MP. The talk is that this can even beat out H110. I opened the can, and recognized the powder immediately. Not as another powder, but from the Federal American Eagle 100 grain rounds for 327 federal! I pulled a bullet from a factory round, and holding side by side, I can not tell one iota difference between the Federal powder and 300-MP. I only weighted the one round, but that cartridge had 14.8 grains of powder. That's a hefty load compared to the next closest load data with H110 at 13.2 grains max.

I did not think to do any definitive tests, but measured by volume, H110 and 300-MP seem pretty dang close in weight.

So I broke out the 167 grain bullet, and tried it again, this time with 300-MP powder. I loaded up to 11.9 grains. 12.2 grains would not fit without adjusting the seater to compress more. I used CCI 550 magnum primers. It was not until later I found that this powder supposedly works well with standard primers. I may try that in the future. Temperature was about 55 degrees, shots fired 8' from the chrony from my 5" GP100. OAL was 1.650", which is longer than the H110 test. This will fit the GP100 barely, or Blackhawk. Possibly the Freedom arms. But nothing smaller.


10.5 gr- 1021 fps
11.0 gr- 1060 fps
11.3 gr- 1103 fps
11.6 gr- 1154 fps
11.9 gr- 1195 fps


I had a target up, but was not concentrating too hard on accuracy. Again I found marginal accuracy with the first two loads, and good accuracy at 1100 fps+. The target was at 50 yards, and they do seem to be better than with H110. I would say 5"-6". Not great, but quite serviceable for what this is. The improved accuracy could also be due to some other change I did not think of. I did not write down the extreme spreads, but one nice thing I noticed was that the ES's were lower than H110 across the board. Where H110 seemed to prefer the lower charges, and got worse as it compressed, 300-MP seems to like the compression. No pressure signs at any point of testing, brass fell right out.

Now unrelated to the 327 federal, I tried some 300-MP in my new 357 magnum, also a 5" GP100 lipseys special. I dug out some old Remington 158 grain jacketed soft points I forgot I had. Alliant load data lists a max load of 18.6 grains. I again used CCI 550 primers, and loaded to a 1.590" OAL.

18.2 gr- 1320 fps
18.6 gr- 1356 fps
19.0 gr- 1378 fps
19.4 gr- 1374 fps
19.8 gr- 1381 fps

So here we show a plateau. Unfortunately the velocities were not quite what I expected. This is a new to me gun, so it could run a touch slow, but this is comparable to H110, maybe even slower. I was hoping for a good 100 fps boost, which some have claimed. Oh well, maybe with heavier bullets, I don't like 158's anyway. I have no idea on accuracy, did not test. At 19.8 grains, primers looked normal, brass did not stick per-se, but it did not fall out of the cylinder either. About 19.2 grains looks promising.