Wadcutter brass (38 spl)

[stubshaft]

I still have and shoot my old 586 from my PPC days. I do NOT have the eyes to go with it though. If I did the type of brass would make a difference. Now I just plink with one of my J frames and can state unequivocally that the brass is NOT going to matter...

[Char-Gar]

I've been told that the wall thickness in wadcutter brass is consistent at least 1/2 way down the case so that it doesn't deform the Boolit. After measuring a mixture of standard brass (Star Line, Winchester, Blazer, etc.) they all measured .010" well below the seating depth of a wadcutter. What difference is there between standard and wadcutter brass?

Repeat the exercise using the length of a hollow base wadcutter, and report back. That is what the factory loads in those cases.

[mehavey]

FWIW: The expander die is what uniforms the internal diameter of a sized case -- wadcutter brass or not.

Full-length sized brass is going to be pretty uniform internally -- notwithanding the wall may be thinner/ID ever-so-slightly bigger for a longer stretch in the old FWC brass. But the expander is what determines final internal diameter once the dust settles.

Now my RCBS 38/357 expander is a uniform/straight cylinder for 0.40" before it hits the mouth flare. With a scoch of flare we may be talking 0.42"- 0.43" straight cylinder inside. Take a look at any 141-148 HBWC and tell me what the shank depth would be on a seated bullet -- even one near flush w/ the case mouth. By my own projections it's not going to be much past the uniform expander/cylinder shank depth.

[35remington]

This is why, upon request, longer expanders intended for HBWC’s are made. With these the point about case wall expansion and thickness is not as moot as you are trying to make it. The base of the HBWC bullet cannot be at all past the expanded depth and area of proper wall thickness, and if you have the right expander and the right cases it is not.

[tazman]

mehavey------According to the NOE website, the 148 grain hollow base wadcutter they make molds for(360-148-wc(hb), produces a boolit .634 inches long.
That is at least .2 inches deeper than the depth your expander produces when the boolit is seated flush with the mouth of the case.
I don't have any factory hollow based wadcutters or I would measure one. Shouldn't be much different, I would think.

[mehavey]

Guys, i'm having a real problem thinking the final 0.05-0.10" of a soft/pure lead HBWC can't handle expanding as it literally starts to move under fast-powder pressure to full case-wall diameter as the case is blown out to chamber diameter.

Especially as that's just exactly what Minie balls do, under far less pressure, with dramatically-slower powder, and far thicker skirts.

BREAK BREAK post: tazman: that's good data. It would affect my thinking on how deep the expander should extend down to, given the bullet's actually that long.

[tazman]

Guys, i'm having a real problem thinking the final 0.05-0.10" of a soft/pure lead HBWC can't handle expanding as it literally starts to move under fast-powder pressure to full case-wall diameter as the case is blown out to chamber diameter.

Especially as that's just exactly what Minie balls do, under far less pressure, with dramatically-slower powder, and far thicker skirts.

BREAK BREAK post: tazman: that's good data. It would affect my thinking on how deep the expander should extend down to, given the bullet's actually that long.

As far as the hollow base expanding under pressure to seal the barrel, that is exactly what it is designed to do. I don't know how quickly it does it though or how much it expands. I would hope it would be starting to expand and seal things up as it leaves the cylinder but it can't be too fast or it might crack while entering the forcing cone, thereby causing all kinds of problems. I do know that too high a chamber pressure will blow the skirts off. Been there done that.
If compressed/swaged too far inside the case, it might not get expanded back out enough to seal the barrel until gas cutting had started. I simply don't know and am speculating here.
I don't know of any tests having been done on this step in the firing process but someone must have addressed it at some point in time. Anyone with certain knowledge of this please jump in here.

[M-Tecs]

I know for a fact the with solid base wadcutters it make a significant accuracy difference. If it didn't make a different in HBWC's there would be no reason for the manufactures to incur the extra expense of producing wc brass.

[starreloader]

Winchester wad-cutter brass and Remington HBWC's all loaded on a STAR with an extended case expander were the items that I loaded many thousands of rounds with during my 10+ years if PPC and other comp shooting.. Was the best combination of ammo components and loading equipment that produced great results for me.

[zubrato]

The brass definitely makes a difference, and the expander is important but will not yield the same results as WC brass. If you expand non-Wc brass to hbwc depths, and seat you may find that a certain amount of your loaded cases will not chamber, if not most of the non-WC brass.
This was exactly the problem I had, as both the interior dimension swaged down my pure lead HG50s from .359 to .355 despite using a custom hbwc from rcbs, and overall diameter of case and bullet did not allow for reliable chambering of a few specific mfg of brass.


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[mehavey]

Learnin' here guys.
Never would have expected pure lead/cavity not to have been able to blow
out to max wall dimensions within first few 1/10th of an inch movement.

(In fact QL tells me that 3gr Bullseye behind a lyman 358495/flush reaches
near Pmax at bullet travel ~0.2" and stays there thru ~0.4-0.5")

[lotech]

I seldom shoot .38 Special wadcutter ammo in a revolver, but do use it in a Smith & Wesson 52 automatic. When I got the pistol several years ago, I worked up loads using a batch of Winchester brass that had already been fired many times. Once I got the right bullet diameter and the seating and crimp to where functioning was reliable, never had a problem and accuracy is excellent.

That batch of brass has worn out and I bought 1,000 Starline. I have not loaded any wadcutter ammo with it, but hope it works as well as the Winchester.

[35remington]

Mehavey, the very fact that it is deliberately done the way it is indicates what you think is “unnecessary” is in fact necessary. When your perception of what is needed does not match what actually occurs, it is time to change your erroneous perception.

[mehavey]

The fact that "....that's the way it's always done...." has never held very little sway with me over the years.
I will find some old-fashioned brass and run some trials.

First, however, I have to find an oversize/overlength expander, or all is for naught no matter what.)
(and what I find fascinating is that Hornady's HBWC advertises "... pre-lubricated, extra-hard and cold swaged"... which I would think defeats the HB purpose for any number of reasons)

(and then... FWIW... my Model-19 cylinder throats pin gauge out to 0.356 -- which again makes me sit back and think.....)





...and...... I've ordered some Black Hills HBWC to play w/ experiment after..... Fun, fun, fun....

[bgeipel]

What a timely topic. I just started casting Lyman 358495 sized to .359 yesterday and my first samples using a Hornady bullet seater/crimp did not chamber in my revolver. I switched to a Lee Factory Crimp and they chambered perfectly. Probably not what I wanted if the Lee Factory Crimp swaged the bullet down to .355

I will pull a loaded bullet tonight too see.

[35remington]

Hornady’s swaged HBWC’s are not at all hard. Take that from a guy who has hardness tested them and been on a tour of the plant six times. Anything swaged from extruded lead wire is by necessity soft.

One of the things one can only disabuse oneself of thinking by actual experiment is to try something “no one else has thought of doing, so it must be better because they haven’t tried it.”

It is also worth considering that the way they are currently doing things is the best way to do it.....because alternatives fail to be as good.

Certainly food for thought. If a type of match wadcutter ammo has been made by everybody this way for years, there is a reason why.

In doing any comparative testing, make sure your testing method, equipment and ability is actually capable of measuring any differences that may be present. Most fall short in this regard.

And in assessing results, be sure to apply statistical analysis to determine what level of difference needs to be observed to be statistically relevant and therefore valid as a conclusion to be derived.

[tazman]

The fact that "....that's the way it's always done...." has never held very little sway with me over the years.
I will find some old-fashioned brass and run some trials.

First, however, I have to find an oversize/overlength expander, or all is for naught no matter what.)
(and what I find fascinating is that Hornady's HBWC advertises "... pre-lubricated, extra-hard and cold swaged"... which I would think defeats the HB purpose for any number of reasons)

(and then... FWIW... my Model-19 cylinder throats pin gauge out to 0.356 -- which again makes me sit back and think.....)





...and...... I've ordered some Black Hills HBWC to play w/ experiment after..... Fun, fun, fun....

Have you slugged your revolver barrel to find out if the groove diameter is larger than the throats?
If the groove diameter is the same or smaller than the throats(unlikely but possible since I own one like that) you won't need to have the throats opened up. If the cylinder throats are smaller than the groove diameter, you will have issues. Probably with both leading and accuracy.
As far as the hard wadcutters from Hornady, even hard hollow based wadcutters will expand if sufficient pressure is applied.

[Clovis]

Does anybody actually sell wadcutter brass anymore? I don't recall ever seeing it listed as an option by any companies selling brass today.

[M-Tecs]

Does anybody actually sell wadcutter brass anymore? I don't recall ever seeing it listed as an option by any companies selling brass today.

I don't ever remember it being for sale. All of mine came for factory woodcutter ammo.

[USSR]

Does anybody actually sell wadcutter brass anymore? I don't recall ever seeing it listed as an option by any companies selling brass today.

They don't sell it as a component, only as ammo. You've got to either buy the ammo or buy the fired brass from an individual who fired the ammo.

Don