Safe Method to Conceal Carry...

[BCB]

Not sure where to post this as it really doesn’t relate to cast boolits, although I might be using cast boolits later down the road…

I just purchased a Kimber Micro 9 (single action semi) and so far so good. Probably put a couple hundred rounds through it and it is functioning well…

I purchased this handgun for the wife to carry and she now will be starting to shoot it and become familiar with it. She will also attend a training class taught be a certified trainer…

Now then, how does one carry this handgun with a loaded round in the chamber. I have read several thoughts on this…

Is it with the hammer cocked and the safety on? This sort of makes me nervous. (Maybe a small wheel gun would have been a better handgun for her—hammer on an empty chamber)…

Any thoughts of the proper method to carry this handgun?...

Thanks…BCB

[umwminer]

God forbid that she ever has to use it but if she does , she better have a rd in the chamber and with a 1911 that means hammer cocked and thumb safety/lock on .
If carried on the person she needs to wear it in a holster that covers the trigger.
If she carries in a pocket , she needs a pocket holster that covers the trigger .
If she carries in a purse she needs a purpose built purse or one modified to retain the piece so it can be drawn but still have the trigger covered .
Your second guess about a wheel gun may be right on if she is not willing or interested in learning the 1911 intimately and with the wheel gun carry options without a holster are safe and is always ready to fire when needed .

[MrWolf]

I think it depends on how she plans to carry. Banging around in a purse vs securely holstered makes a difference. I am no expert so take it within grain of salt. I carry a S&W M&P 45c with no safety and one in the pipe ready to go. I bought an Overland carry vest and utilized my own holster that I put Velcro on vs the revolver holster that comes with it. Pistol stays down and with the trigger area protected with both holster and vest material I feel confident there won't be any problems. Glad to hear she is carrying too. Good luck.

[bdicki]

And that is why striker fired guns became so popular.

[w5pv]

I carry mine with the hammer down and one in the chamber,with a little practice one can draw and fire almost as fast as one can release the safty,never had a mishap and to me it is a much safer way to carry.Never had to draw but once to deter a would be attacker or robber what ever he had on his mind when he saw I was armed that was enough to change his mind.

[EMR]

And what if one hand is injured, bloodied and slippery or fending off an attacker? How will she rack the slide? If the gun has combat sights she might be able to rack it on her belt (if she’s wearing one). This is why I believe in always having one in the chamber.

She could put the hammer down on an empty revolver chamber, but now she only has 4 rounds to use which is highly limiting her chances of success in itself.

If one is going to carry a 1911, may as well do it properly cocked and locked with one in the chamber. Goes for any self defense firearm really.

[gray wolf]

A 1911 type pistol ( thumb safety + grip safety )
was intended to be carried cocked locked and loaded.
It's as safe as you can get. The internals would have to undergo a catastrophic mechanical failure for a mishap to take place.

Keep in mind most instructors don't teach you how to stay alive on the streets.
That all comes from firing 1,000's of rounds and having advanced training,
Stoked muscle memory, the correct mind set and many other things.

You are sadly mistaken if you think 2 or 3 hours of instruction is going to make you street ready

Is “Cocked and Locked” Dangerous?

Cocked and Locked 1911

Cocked and Locked 1911

By Syd

Q: The one and only problem I’ve ever had with the classic 1911 is having to carry “cocked & locked.” In your opinion, are the double action only models offered by Para-Ordnance the way to go when safety is concerned?

There are really two parts to your question so I’ll deal with them separately.

First, yes the P-O LDA is an excellent option when the cocked and locked 1911 is a problem. Charles Riggs wrote a nice article for me on the LDA which addresses this:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/para-ord-745.htm

Second, I believe that the concern about the safety of the “cocked and locked” (condition 1) pistol is more a matter of perceptions than reality. It looks scary. When you’re new to the 1911, it feels scary. I started out with wheel guns and it took me some time to get used to cocked and locked. But, given the huge number of M1911 pistols which are out there in service, you would think that we would hear more about accidental discharges if this were a problem. The fact is that we don’t because they don’t go off by themselves. I have only heard one story from one police officer who claimed one went off in his holster when it bumped against a banister as he descended a set of stairs, but when I pushed him for details, he refused to say anything more. He wouldn’t tell me the kind of holster, if the gun had been modified, its state of repair or any other circumstances. This led me to believe that he was either blowing smoke or there was something about the gun he didn’t want to tell me.
Safety On 1911

Safety On 1911

What do we mean by “cocked and locked”? The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-cock notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.

But what about the cocked and locked pistol taking a hard hit on the hammer? Could it go off then? Listen to this report from Terry Erwin:

“About ten years ago, I was working as an armed-plain clothed-security officer. During a struggle with an arrested subject the Combat Commander I was carrying cocked and locked, holstered in a Bianchi “Pancake” on my strong side hip, struck the center door jam of a set of double doors. The center door jam was knocked loose, and two belt loops were torn off of my jeans. The hammer was bent inward and the safety would not move. A gunsmith had to press out the safety, hammer pin, and sear pin. The edge of the sear had cracked off, and a piece of one hammer hook also cracked off. The gun did not discharge upon that impact. I have carried several Colt’s, including that repaired Commander for most of my adult life, and have never once worried about the weapon (myself or someone else is a different story, but not the gun).”

The 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol so it has to be cocked in order to fire. People deal with this in one of three ways: cocked and locked (condition 1), or they chamber a round and carefully lower the hammer (condition 2) so they have to thumb cock the gun to fire it, or they carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when they bring it into action (condition 3). I would advise either condition 1 or 3 for home defense, but not condition 2. I don’t advise condition 2 under any circumstances. (For more discussion on the conditions see “The Conditions of Readiness”) If you are only using the gun for home defense, there is nothing wrong with leaving it in condition 3 with a loaded magazine but with an empty chamber – as long as you have the presence of mind to load the weapon under stress. (Don’t give me a “duh” on that one because weird things happen to one’s mind when someone is trying to get into your house at 3 AM).

When the gun is cocked and locked, the sear is blocked from releasing the hammer. Further, unless a firing grip is on the pistol, thumb safety swept off, and the trigger is pulled, the gun will not go off. For my money, this is much safer than a Glock or some of the other new pistol designs which have no external safety. The Glock, by the way, is also pre-cocked which is why it can have a much lighter trigger than a real double action gun. It could be said that the Glock is “cocked and unlocked” which is called “condition zero” with the M1911. Anecdotally, we hear of many more “accidental discharges” with Glocks than with M1911 pattern guns. The 1911 has two manual safeties. It may look scary, but it is really much safer than many current designs.

If an M1911 has been butchered internally, all bets are off, and I have seen a couple like that. But if the gun is in good repair, it is safe and will not go off unless the thumb safety is swept off, a firing grip is on the handle, and the trigger is pulled. If you buy a used M1911 pattern pistol, be sure to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith just to insure that the gun has not been modified or made dangerous by a tinkerer and that it is in good working order.

A sideline: of the pistols I have carried, the M1911 is the only one I carry with the safeties engaged. I carry S&W and Beretta DA/SA guns with the safety off. Glocks and wheel guns don’t have a safety at all (and no, I don’t consider the trigger flange on the Glock a real manual safety). In this respect, the cocked and locked M1911 is the safest pistol. It is unique in the fact that it has not one but two manual safeties which have to be acted upon to make the gun fire.

Now, to argue the other direction for just a second, do I feel safer with a true DA/SA with a firing pin block and a manual safety like a S&W or Beretta? Yes, in an absolute sense, I do when I’m in the world of theoretical possibilities, but again, I think this is more a matter of feeling than reality. Some weird combination of events could conspire to take the safety off, push down the grip safety and pull the trigger all at the same time, but I can’t visualize what that circumstance would be. Nevertheless, when I’m backpacking and I know the gun may have to ride in my backpack and flop around in a tent with me, I will often carry a S&W DA/SA just because some of these strange possibilities come to mind. For the purposes for which a gun is needed, I feel safer with the M1911 because I know I’m going to shoot it better and faster than these other options.

I have seen “accidental discharges” with M1911’s, but without exception they have been instances in which the finger was on the trigger or the fire control group had been modified by an incompetent. I have yet to document a single case in which an M1911 simply experienced a catastrophic failure and went off while cocked and locked. And I do hunt for such stories because this is a concern for a lot of people.

Another interesting “safety feature” of the M1911 was first observed by Massad Ayoob. In the event that a bad guy might get your gun away from you, confusion about the controls of the cocked and locked M1911 could cause him enough hesitation to give you a chance to either get the gun back or flee. The current generation of thugs have cut their teeth on double action semi-autos and revolvers and many do not know how the M1911 operates. Ayoob tested this with people who were unfamiliar with pistols by giving them unloaded pistols of various designs and measuring how long it took them to figure out the controls and make the hammer drop. The M1911 proved to be considerably slower to fire than double action guns in the hands of those who are unfamiliar with the gun.

Q: Is the cocked and locked M1911 a problem for people who are new to firearms and want to keep one for home defense?

In my opinion, cocked and locked does not present either a safety or handling problem. In fact, I would be inclined to argue the other way, that it is very intuitive and simple, and very quickly brought into action. 90 years of successful service tends to bear this out. All you have to do is to sweep the thumb safety down with your thumb and the gun is ready to fire. It is a natural motion and people learn it quickly.

Other issues come into play when you’re considering keeping an 1911 loaded for home defense, such as if you have small children in the home and how much access your friends have to your home, but there is nothing inherently dangerous with having a cocked an locked gun at the ready. If you have really small children who are too young to train on firearms safety, then condition 3 – empty chamber – is definitely the way to go because the child will not know to rack the slide to load it and they will lack the strength in their hands and arms to do it. If you are a very social person who has a lot of parties and people running through your house all the time, then you really should wear it, concealed of course, so that the pistol is under your immediate control and you don’t have to worry about someone finding it and doing something stupid. If that’s not possible, lock it up or find a smarter circle of friends who won’t go through your stuff when you’re not looking.

Finally, the real cure for cocked and locked anxiety is to get “un-new” to the gun. Shoot it, get used to it, learn it so that you don’t have to think about it. Familiarity will dispel that anxiety. Get some training if at all possible. Pistols really require some training and practice to use effectively. A good training session with a qualified professional trainer will help to separate the fact from the fantasy about what you can actually do with your pistol when the chips are down.

I feel that the 1911 is the fastest, best shooting pistol which has ever been built, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t some other good designs out there. You should be comfortable with your gun, and if you just can’t get over that fear about the cocked hammer, find another gun that feels good to you. I love the 1911 because of the way it shoots, but I had some nervousness with them when I was new to them. Practice and familiarity made it go away.

“Due to misplaced concerns about safety and liability, the police have shunned the Condition One (Cocked and Locked) SA auto, mostly in favor of DA autos that aren’t any easier to use than a DA revolver. Claims that the SA auto is unsafe or requires special training are hogwash, something that too many people accept without challenge. And if you don’t believe it, come see me at any CTASAA course and I’ll prove it to you.” – Chuck Taylor

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Assuming that you don't reverse course and opt for the revolver, carrying concealed for some women presents a special challenge because of the style(s) of clothing that they wear. Maybe not such a problem in the winter when a coat can be worn and a belt holster will work, but most other times of the year concealment becomes more difficult. The observation about a gun rattling around loose in a purse is a good one, but there are now many purses made specifically to carry a handgun in enough styles to delight any woman. A purse with a shoulder strap to prevent purse snatching is strongly recommended, as is practice in rapidly accessing the handgun. If you do change your mind on the revolver, modern revolvers such as Colt, Smith, & Ruger do not require carry with an empty chamber. Were you to follow that practice with one of the smallest and lightest available, the Smith & Wesson "J" frame you'd be reducing your round count to 4 rounds, as they only hold 5 when fully loaded.

[Char-Gar]

Autoloading pistols are more complex to operate for folks who are not willing to spend time to become proficient with them. Women seem to have trouble even loading the magazine unless trained.

For any person who wants a handgun for protection and is not interested in hours of range time, a revolver is the way to go for many reasons.

[contender1]

I've been teaching ladies to shoot handguns for over 15 years. My wife is one of the NRA top 10 Women On Target instructors in the country.
Quote; "And what if one hand is injured, bloodied and slippery or fending off an attacker? How will she rack the slide? If the gun has combat sights she might be able to rack it on her belt (if she’s wearing one). This is why I believe in always having one in the chamber."

This is a well thought out statement.

One of the things I stress to any shooter I teach is to consider a worst case scenario. Injured, using only one hand,,,, your "off" hand, on the ground, bad position etc. "Can you get to your gun & make it operate?" Think about that "knockout game" that's been going on. Or a blind side attack. It's much easier to stand, both feet planted, two hands holding a gun, and popping rounds at a static target on a range,,, as compared to street life activity.
Next,,, I teach that if you are choosing a firearm for everyday carry & SD,,, you need to become muscle memory friendly with it,,, just like driving a car. When you go to drive a car,,, you do not consciously think about; "Unlocking the door, getting in, sitting down, putting on your seat belt, putting the key in the ignition, putting your foot on the brake, grasping the steering wheel, cranking the car, putting it in gear, turning the wheel, applying the gas or brakes & driving."
You have done it so often, your body has developed muscle memory on how & what to do.
The more features a firearm has,,, the more you have to make part of muscle memory. And,,, can it be operated in the above worst case scenario?
Racking a slide, depressing a safety, (or two,) accidentally hitting a magazine release, are all things a semi-auto may need to get into operation, or it may not be in operation.

The 1911 design has 2 safeties. The grip safety, and the manual safety. I like to say that all guns have at least one safety,,, the one between your ears. So, a 1911 is to be considered to have 3 safeties.

Proper carry,,, for ladies is a lot harder than for a man. But,,, luckily,,, that has been changing due to companies FINALLY looking at how much of the market is ladies now. Ladies wear their clothing differently, do not often wear a proper gun belt, that can support the weight of a handgun. They wear their pants higher up on the waist, more form fitting, and style IS important to them. Traditional holsters do not often work for the ladies.

These are but a few things to consider for your wife.

Now,,, I commend you for buying a gun for your wife to use/carry.
But when we teach the ladies only classes,,, we tell the ladies to get some proper instruction, handle & shoot many different types of guns. Include loading & unloading,,, especially magazines. Many older ladies have difficulties in loading a magazine. We supply DA revolvers & semi-autos for them to try. When made to shoot with the off hand, one handed,, many find it more difficult than first considered.
There,,, quite often,,, a simple to operate, DA revolver,,, in 357 mag becomes the ideal choice. Left or right hand, one handed, upside down, sideways, odd position, it will operate. Plus,,, it requires MUCH less muscle memory skills to operate.
Just remember,,, the lighter the gun, the heavier the recoil, while the heavier the gun, the less felt recoil. On the flip side, the lighter the gun, the easier to carry, while the heavier the gun, the harder to carry.

So, while we tell the ladies to get their husbands to buy the gun, THEY need to select the one THEY prefer.

The info above is offered to allow you to truly consider as many options as possible.

Now, I know this is a lot more than your above questions.
I have a Kimber Ultra Carry II in 45 acp that I often carry. I use a 1911 in USPSA competition, and will shoot over 10,000 round annually. I get to shoot it one handed, off hand, all while under a clock & pushing myself. I have become motor memory friendly with it. I also shoot a S&W 646 revolver in competition. Again, I shoot thousands & thousands of rounds annually in competition, and for fun. Again, I can make one operate w/o thinking. I also carry one of my Ruger DA revolvers quite often as well.
The 1911 design was made to be carried "locked & cocked." It has 2 safeties,,, the grip safety, and the manual safety. I carry mine, as does most folks,,, with one in the chamber, and the manual safety on.
I never carry a DA revolver with an empty chamber. It is not necessary.
I DO, carry my Old Model Single Action revolvers with the hammer on an empty chamber due to their design. (There, I'm using the safety between my ears.)

So, have your wife go to a GOOD class,,, and let HER decide what SHE prefers for her own CCW. It just may mean you get to buy another gun!

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I typed up a response, then decided to read to above post.

Contender1 said it all. Perfectly.

[fcvan]

I have bought my wife a good many guns, and she has bought me a good many guns. None of the guns I have bought her she does not like. There was only one gun she bought for herself she did not like, a compact 40. I had the compact 9mm version and thought I was about to score. She traded to a neighbor who had a Vaquero in 45 Colt he bought out from under me at a gun show. She gave him the 40, he gave her the 45, she handed it to me. I did score! I let her shoot a 5 shot snubby I had. I bought her a Glock 23 and asked for my snubby back. "Get your own" she replied. I just might.

[WebMonkey]

my wife carries a wheel gun WITH a transfer bar.
no need for an empty chamber.
present and squeeze.
thats it.

[BCB]

Interesting. I am going to print some of what has been posted and let the wife read it...

I do have one other question, at this time. The Micro 9 does not have a grip safety. Does that change anything concerning the "cocked and locked" information?...

Thanks...BCB

[NSB]

I've been shooting handguns for around fifty years now, both for hunting and competitions shooting. I've taught a lot of people to shoot over the years while giving a pistol course here in NY. I can tell you one thing for an absolute fact....when the adrenaline dumps all thought goes out the window. Very few people will be able to cope with a gun that requires any amount of thought at all to get into action. At almost every big shoot I've attended over the years I've seen the vast majority of contenders react in a negative manner in some regard due to an adrenaline rush. Some really bad, some mildly bad. And that's at a shoot where it's supposed to be all about fun. Under life threatening duress it's going to be multiplied tenfold. For someone who wants to carry a gun and is realistic about how much, or how little time they are going to put into practicing, it's sometimes just best to go with what's simplest. I'd suggest a double action auto or revolver where it just requires a pull of the trigger. Putting the Rambo fantasies aside (few will ever be involved in a prolonged gunfight), simply having the option of drawing a gun and pointing it will be sufficient. Pulling the trigger on some perp at arms length will be better than trying to figure out where the safety is, racking the slide, cocking the hammer, etc. Just simply draw, point, and fire. Most can at least get that done.

[bob208]

I carry a browning h-p cocked and locked it has no grip safety. been carrying it for 20 years never had a problem.

[nicholst55]

Remember that the grip safety was added by John Browning to what became the 1911 at the Army's insistence. The original design did not have one. His last (cooperative) handgun design, the Hi-Power, did not have a grip safety, either. I feel that the grip safety is redundant and unnecessary. However, since it's built into the design, I utilize it whenever I carry or use a 1911.

[Mr_Sheesh]

There are a LOT of 1911s out there with the grip safety disabled - Schools such as Gunsite teach this; People do so because, if you grip the 1911 properly (as low in your hand as you can get it) - the grip safety can engage, especially if you put a beavertail (extended) grip safety on it. (I have BIG hands and if I don't do that there's a REAL risk of the hammer spur poking a hole in the web between my thumb and trigger finger. OW and that won't help me shoot well at ALL.) Browning didn't feel the need for that - GSG9, Germany's anti-terrorism force, had last I heard, for many YEARS had ALL safeties disabled on their weapons, to make sure the problem never arose where they needed to shoot a terrorist and couldn't because of the safety being on, I am told, and no negligent discharges. So indeed the MAIN safety's the one between your ears. I won't be disabling the thumb safety on mine, but it's interesting to know that GSG9 manages that.

For racking the slide one handed, there are a number of ways we taught in the classes I helped with. If sitting in the car, clamp the slide between your legs (barrel pointing AWAY from your pelvis, would be a wise choice, here!) then you can eject the magazine, slam in a new one, grab the grip, push it away from yourself to chamber a round, pull the 1911 away from your legs to let the slide move forwards. Or, you can use your belt or pants or even a hip bone (might bruise you a little but beats a bullet hole!) - Push the slide just in front of the rear sight FIRMLY against your side or belt, push the 1911 away from you (pulling the slide back) and then move it away from your side / belt. Works very well, you'll want to muscle memory that one TOO if you plan to use it. As always make sure you aren't crossing yourself with the muzzle, since that's just plain a bad idea.

And be sure to train her in situational awareness; Without SA you can be snuck up on all too easily. I find I can do that pretty well with just my hearing, but better to sit in a restaurant where you can see the entry etc. anyways.

[Lloyd Smale]

I love 1911s but feel there better suited to experienced shooter. My wife carrys a striker fired 9 in her purse in a pocket holster with a round in the chamber. Trigger is covered by the holster just in case the one in a billion chance she stuck her hand In the purse and it went off. No safety to have to train her to remember. Draw the gun and pull the trigger is about as guy savoy as I expect out of her.

[charlie b]

I may be reading too much into the OP's first post. But...

It sounds like the wife is not that familiar with pistols. If so, the 1911 is not the right gun. A semi-auto may not be right for her at all. And, yes, a 1911 is perfectly safe carrying cocked and locked.

First, what is she competent at shooting? When she can shoot proficiently then move on to which gun she should carry. FWIW, if she is carrying due to real or perceived situations, then she will need a LOT more training in general self defense. Glad she is getting that training.

Second, let HER pick her gun. Go to a range and try out several. Revolvers and autos. Different calibers. My wife has been shooting for decades and I'd NEVER pick out a gun for her. Just as she would NEVER pick out a gun for me. Heck, it took me weeks to pick out a pistol that fit my hand the last time I was shopping.

Third, let her pick a 'safe' holster/purse for carry. Again, every one and every situation is different. Yes, she may have to try several. And, she may need several purses/holsters depending on situations.

Last, training with her gun and holsters. Again, I'd recommend a pro instructor. At the very least a lot of range time for her to figure things out.

If the instructor is a good one he/she will be a big help in your wife figuring out what is best for her for gun and carry method.

PS several women I have known have seen too much TV. They aim and shoot, yanking the trigger til the gun is empty. They consider themselves 'safe' because they are 'armed'. They are more a danger to themselves than a perp.