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Thread: short barreled rifle legality questions

  1. #61
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkins45 View Post
    I had copied this from a FAQ document but can't find it on the ATF site at the moment, so I'm a little uncomfortable that maybe ATF has changed their minds. This is what I had from a couple of years ago:

    Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?

    Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS. Question--control as in have it with you or have it at home?

    Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?

    There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/at...ter-2/download

    Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon. This is a direct quote from the document above.
    So why then do they say once a full auto, always a full auto? Century got nailed on that for the 8mm M76 rifle. They welded up the receiver. ATF made them recall the rifles and send the cut up rifle back to them. Lots were never sent back as they were lost in a boating accident
    .

  2. #62
    Boolit Master
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    You’re looking for logic and reason in gun laws: that’s a sure way to end up confused

    Maybe because machine guns are way eviler that SBRs?
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    If you wonder why private gun ownership is a good thing, go visit the Holocaust Museum. Armed people don't march into gas chambers.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    that letter is 14 years old.
    Makes no difference.. it is an opinion letter. until their opinion changes, it's as good as law.

    The issue with the shoestring, if you bothered to read the letter, and look at the pictures from the other post.. the shoestring with a ring attached essentially makes a new trigger. IE.. the shoestring ring becomes the new trigger.. and as long as you hold it down, the gun fires.

  4. #64
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    the law has been address and the batf has said that bump firing is NOT full auto. I could care less if a shoestring is legal or not. my guess is when they said bump firing is legal it made procecuting someone from using a shoe string pretty tough. I could care less either way because theres much better ways like bumpfire stock binary triggers ect that allow you to fire fast controllably to even bother with a shoe string.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  5. #65
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    Ahh... the nevermind/dodge response when confronted with evidence. No problem..

  6. #66
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    Hmmm. Binary triggers. Had to look it up. Didn't know such an animal existed.

  7. #67
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    Hmm.. I wonder what a binary trigger and a slidefire stock would do...

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    Hmm.. I wonder what a binary trigger and a slidefire stock would do...
    Cost you A LOT of $$$$$$$$$

  9. #69
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    No more than any other fast gun I'd think.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master Electric88's Avatar
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    If memory serves me correctly, Previous iterations of the binary trigger struggled with resetting when pulled too fast, leaving the bolt in the forward position and not being able to fire the next round. Not sure if that was fixed somehow, or would be an issue...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bg6ga View Post
    Just call the ATF and have them explain just exactly what you can and cannot have and the way to do it. This way you can steer away from the "know it alls" that may or may not be up on all the laws. Do it wrong and they will tell you ignorance of the law is no excuse when your being taken off to prison.
    I politely disagree. I would never depend on a phone call. Most of us have probably heard of somebody getting bad or wrong advice from IRS. Simply no way one can depend on the person answering the phone. If in doubt, a letter and its response is something one can fall back on even if the answer is wrong. During my time in the 80's with a FFL. I wrote ATF a few times with questions. The reply might be slow but a bad answer in writing could save your bacon. If ATF goes forward with a prosecution whomever answered the letter has left themselves and the agency wide open to a civil suit.

    I recall reading in gun rags in the early 70's of some ATF arrests for possession of M-2 Carbine parts. ATF at the time considered possession of the M-2 parts and a M-1 Carbine under the same roof as a violation. Unfortunately I never heard if there were any prosecutions. ATF was known at the time to harass gun owners looking for chicken sh!t violations so they could get a search warrant and visit at 3:00 AM.

    Seems ATF was PO'd SARCO, Numrich and others obtained surplus M-2 parts and one could easily convert their M-1 Carbine's to full auto and avoid the tax stamp and red tape. My guess and it's pure speculation on my part. ATF did the arrests seeeking publicity, setting an example to scare away anybody from illegally converting their M-1's. I've heard 2nd and 3rd hand accounts but have no first hand knowledge of similar 3:00 AM visits of those that bought the so called AR-15 auto sears in the 80's.

    In summary, get it in writing!!

  12. #72
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    Double post

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by azrednek View Post
    I politely disagree. I would never depend on a phone call..

    In summary, get it in writing!!
    Yup.. get it in writing, and hope they don't change their mind. Because what they wrote one day as an opinion can be gone with the wind tomorrow.

  14. #74
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    slide fire stocks, bianary triggers and sig braces all come with a copy of the document where the batf said there legal.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  15. #75
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    Matters not. SIG brace went from legal to illegal to legal again at the whim of the ATF.

    When they went from legal to illegal, that piece of paper that shipped with them became about as good as confederate currency a month after the union won, all based on an opinion on shouldering being a redesign or not.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    Matters not. SIG brace went from legal to illegal to legal again at the whim of the ATF.
    not.
    I can recall two instances of ATF approval only to be reversed by a higher up in the agency. Some of you gun aficionados that were Shotgun News subscribers in the 70's might recall the full page ad with ATF letter saying black powder muzzle loading cane gun replicas were exempt. Friend ordered one and several weeks later got his money order back. Seems ATF changed their minds saying all new manufactured cane guns were NFA items. Gun show rumor was the ad ran while the cane guns were at sea, confiscated by customs upon their arrival and later destroyed. No telling how much money the importer lost, especially after seeking prior approval.

    A similar situation of a spring wound device with a cam to attach to AR-15 triggers was approved and a short time later the bureaucrats changed their minds claiming it is a NFA item requiring serial number and tax stamp. Undoubtedly some poor guy after investing his money tooling up lost his donkey on it.

    I can't recall the numbers but some may recall the legal battle Thompson Center had with ATF. Cost TC mega bucks taking on ATF in federal court.
    Last edited by azrednek; 01-19-2018 at 11:11 PM.

  17. #77
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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    Post removed by user
    Last edited by Artful; 02-15-2018 at 10:42 PM.
    je suis charlie

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  18. #78
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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    Last edited by Artful; 02-15-2018 at 10:43 PM.
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  19. #79
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artful View Post
    Does anyone remember the Akins Accelerator stock for the 10/22 - approved - then denied after sales proved popular - too bad they didn't flood the market while legal and overwhelm BATFE's ability to recall them.
    http://www.tbo.com/news/ban-of-devic...ors-ire-174591
    I'm surprised he wasn't compensated, perhaps he would have prevailed in a civil suit if he had the bucks to challenge ATF in court. I recall in the sixties before there was a DEA. The FBI bought out some spot remover manufactures after discovering their formula was used in the manufacture of LSD. The FBI then went to each retailer and bought their stock. At least the FBI was considerate enough to buy out the manufactures. I assume for a fair price and not breaking the bank of those that harmlessly made a legal product.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by azrednek View Post
    I can recall two instances of ATF approval only to be reversed by a higher up in the agency. Some of you gun aficionados that were Shotgun News subscribers in the 70's might recall the full page ad with ATF letter saying black powder muzzle loading cane gun replicas were exempt. Friend ordered one and several weeks later got his money order back. Seems ATF changed their minds saying all new manufactured cane guns were NFA items. Gun show rumor was the ad ran while the cane guns were at sea, confiscated by customs upon their arrival and later destroyed. No telling how much money the importer lost, especially after seeking prior approval.

    A similar situation of a spring wound device with a cam to attach to AR-15 triggers was approved and a short time later the bureaucrats changed their minds claiming it is a NFA item requiring serial number and tax stamp. Undoubtedly some poor guy after investing his money tooling up lost his donkey on it.

    I can't recall the numbers but some may recall the legal battle Thompson Center had with ATF. Cost TC mega bucks taking on ATF in federal court.
    exactly.. 'opinion letters' are as solid as toilet paper. they can go bad before you know it.

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