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Thread: short barreled rifle legality questions

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
    Omega's Avatar
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    I have a 10.5" 300Blk AR pistol w/brace, I refuse to do the whole NFA extortion bit so all my less than 16" weapons are pistols. I won't ask permission to drive across state lines, less than 10 miles to KY, so SBR is out of the question, even if they dropped the "tax" to $1. I don't need a silencer so they're out as well, so unless I can build one for the cost of materials, it will stay that way.

    The Sig brace can fit other tubes, with some being cheaper, brace compatible tubes are better than standard tubes to get the stop, which gives better LOP.
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    "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it."
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  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    I have a sig brace on a phase 5 buffer tube, works well.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    I have a sig brace on a phase 5 buffer tube, works well.
    This is what Sig used on my factory pistol. Just about perfect for me. Might have to take it to the range tomorrow.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	211607 Top is a suppressed .458 socom sbr. Awesome configuration. Like a 45 70 in an ar. Also have 300 bo upper, stupid quiet. Bottom is a 50 beowulf. All shoot cast.
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. metalworker, woodworker, mechanic, restorer and 200.00 stamp collector

  5. #45
    Boolit Master






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    no it can not. There is nothing illegal about bump firing any way you want to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Sheesh View Post
    Real problem being that a shoestring can count as an auto sear.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by blademasterii View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	211607 Top is a suppressed .458 socom sbr. Awesome configuration. Like a 45 70 in an ar. Also have 300 bo upper, stupid quiet. Bottom is a 50 beowulf. All shoot cast.
    That's an awesome pair of rifles! And I thought my Guide gun in 45/70 was a lot of firepower, lol! I didn't know you could shoot cast out of one of those 50 beowulfs, that's interesting...

  7. #47
    Boolit Master Electric88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward429451 View Post
    That's an awesome pair of rifles! And I thought my Guide gun in 45/70 was a lot of firepower, lol! I didn't know you could shoot cast out of one of those 50 beowulfs, that's interesting...
    The 50 Beowulf uses the same boolits as the Smith and Wesson 500 magnum. I'm not sure it can use some of the heavier boolits (like the mammoth 700 grain boolit), but it certainly can use most of the same boolits. At least, that was the excuse I gave my wife when I went out and bought the Beowulf and already had the 500

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    Lloyd Smale, They since rescinded it. It definitely was in a BATFE letter at one time...

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...a-machine-gun/

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    no it can not. There is nothing illegal about bump firing any way you want to do it.
    Except that the ATF says a shoestring is a machine gun...

    https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp...e-gun-2004.jpg

  10. #50
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    The showstring was real. Someone was pissed off and sent it in to the BATF and it had a serial # to get a determination ruling. It was listed in the transferable machine gun list after the 86 ban.

  11. #51
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    maybe it was at one time. But the batf has determined that to be a machine gun it has to fire more then one shot at the pull of the trigger and bump firing a trigger is still pulling a trigger and the gun only goes off once each time its pulled. the are even allowing the bfsIII trigger which fires on the pull of the trigger and fires again on the release of the trigger saying that it takes just as much thought to pull the trigger as it does to let it come forward and theres no law saying a trigger can only work by being pulled back. What a machine gun is is a weapon that with one action of your finger shoots multiple rounds. Put simply you can not buy, sell or process an auto sear that doesn't have a serial number and isn't registered with the batf or you WILL go to prison. If bumpfire and binary triggers were illegal you wouldn't see them for sale everywhere because the manufactures and sellers would be in jail.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 01-13-2018 at 08:44 AM.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    Except that the ATF says a shoestring is a machine gun...

    https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp...e-gun-2004.jpg
    that letter is 14 years old.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    All this discussion is relevant to what happened at my shop yesterday. A young man came in with a Spike's Tactical 5.56 pistol. It had a pistol buffer tube, no brace, and a 10.5" barrel. He claimed he had assembled the entire package himself. In a separate box he had a rifle buffer tube for a 4-position stock and a 16.5" barrel. He wanted these parts installed on his pistol to change the pistol into a rifle. He looked sensible and spoke intelligently, but there were a few flags waving that made me cautious. He claimed to have built the whole pistol himself, thus he should have been able to make these changes for himself. He even had a correct barrel nut wrench for the uncommon barrel nut on the pistol. The wrench appeared well worn, far beyond what would have been required for one barrel installation. The free-float tube was on the pistol, but it was not anchored down - could be removed to inspect the barrel and low profile gas block. I found the castle nut on the buffer tube was staked onto the lower. Hmmmmmmm, says me. With this I challenged him (politely) on his building the lower. He then allowed he had bought the lower already assembled as a pistol lower. OK, so he was shy about his skills. I asked for his driver's license to complete the work order form (I do this with all customers). I know most of the roads in this county but did not know his, then asked him where that was in the county. He answered "right off Highway "1234". I then asked, north or south. He stumbled for a minute and answered "north", right near (another road name). I replied "north" goes toward (another town) but your road is south toward (another town). He acted confused, and I'm smelling a rat. We completed the repair order and he left the building.

    As soon as he was off the property I called the local ATF field office and spoke with whoever answered the phone about this conversion request. Yup, I know different people can and will give different answers, but here is what I heard: If I were to complete this project, I would have either (1) qualified as a manufacturer for turning a pistol into a rifle, or (2) I would have created a NFA firearm because of (long, intricate explanation). This was the position of the ATF officer I spoke with. My FFL is a type 1 dealer license. I do not hold a manufacturer's license, nor do I hold a SOT license. Beyond that, I have instilled a personal choice to refuse to work on any NFA firearm because of all the legal bear traps contained in those regulations. There are enough properly licensed craftsmen out there to handle those chores. Perhaps the person at the field office was wrong, and I could have made these changes. That by itself would not have stopped their agents from bringing a charge against me for going outside my license abilities (if one employee said it was illegal, others could also). Even if I were charged and later found innocent the lawyer costs and public black eye would have been more than I care to tolerate. Bottom line, I'm too old and tired to risk trying to pee against the wind.

    I called the owner of this pistol and explained my conversation with ATF to him. At the end I asked him to pick up his project at his convenience. Strange thing, he was still really close to the shop and was inside the door in 15-20 minutes after the call ended. Again, things that make one say Hmmmmmmm !?!

  14. #54
    Boolit Master






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    I thought it was legal to convert an AR that's registered as a handgun back to a rifle but not a rifle into a handgun.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thin Man View Post
    All this discussion is relevant to what happened at my shop yesterday. A young man came in with a Spike's Tactical 5.56 pistol. It had a pistol buffer tube, no brace, and a 10.5" barrel. He claimed he had assembled the entire package himself. In a separate box he had a rifle buffer tube for a 4-position stock and a 16.5" barrel. He wanted these parts installed on his pistol to change the pistol into a rifle. He looked sensible and spoke intelligently, but there were a few flags waving that made me cautious. He claimed to have built the whole pistol himself, thus he should have been able to make these changes for himself. He even had a correct barrel nut wrench for the uncommon barrel nut on the pistol. The wrench appeared well worn, far beyond what would have been required for one barrel installation. The free-float tube was on the pistol, but it was not anchored down - could be removed to inspect the barrel and low profile gas block. I found the castle nut on the buffer tube was staked onto the lower. Hmmmmmmm, says me. With this I challenged him (politely) on his building the lower. He then allowed he had bought the lower already assembled as a pistol lower. OK, so he was shy about his skills. I asked for his driver's license to complete the work order form (I do this with all customers). I know most of the roads in this county but did not know his, then asked him where that was in the county. He answered "right off Highway "1234". I then asked, north or south. He stumbled for a minute and answered "north", right near (another road name). I replied "north" goes toward (another town) but your road is south toward (another town). He acted confused, and I'm smelling a rat. We completed the repair order and he left the building.

    As soon as he was off the property I called the local ATF field office and spoke with whoever answered the phone about this conversion request. Yup, I know different people can and will give different answers, but here is what I heard: If I were to complete this project, I would have either (1) qualified as a manufacturer for turning a pistol into a rifle, or (2) I would have created a NFA firearm because of (long, intricate explanation). This was the position of the ATF officer I spoke with. My FFL is a type 1 dealer license. I do not hold a manufacturer's license, nor do I hold a SOT license. Beyond that, I have instilled a personal choice to refuse to work on any NFA firearm because of all the legal bear traps contained in those regulations. There are enough properly licensed craftsmen out there to handle those chores. Perhaps the person at the field office was wrong, and I could have made these changes. That by itself would not have stopped their agents from bringing a charge against me for going outside my license abilities (if one employee said it was illegal, others could also). Even if I were charged and later found innocent the lawyer costs and public black eye would have been more than I care to tolerate. Bottom line, I'm too old and tired to risk trying to pee against the wind.

    I called the owner of this pistol and explained my conversation with ATF to him. At the end I asked him to pick up his project at his convenience. Strange thing, he was still really close to the shop and was inside the door in 15-20 minutes after the call ended. Again, things that make one say Hmmmmmmm !?!
    This is an example of why calling the ATF for guidance is little better than asking random strangers on the internet. There’s no such thing as a NFA rifle with a 16” barrel and a shoulder stock unless it’s a machine gun. And a gun that started life as a pistol can be converted to a rifle, just not the other way around.

    Here’s another kicker for you: an SBR ceases to be an SBR if you put a 16” barrel on it.
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  16. #56
    Boolit Master Artful's Avatar
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    Post removed by user
    Last edited by Artful; 02-15-2018 at 10:41 PM.
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  17. #57
    Boolit Master Artful's Avatar
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    Last edited by Artful; 02-15-2018 at 10:42 PM.
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artful View Post
    No, a firearm on the registry as a SBR is still a SBR no matter what longer barrel you put on it unless you notify BATFE of a permenant change and ask for it to be removed from the registry
    It still retains the ability to be put back into SBR configuration, but it is not itself an SBR unless it has a <16" barrel attached. In other words, if I take my legal SBR lower and put a 20" upper on it, I don't have to request ATF approval to cross state lines with it because it is not a short barreled rifle. Once I return home I can put the 10" upper back on and it becomes a SBR again. The configuration matters as to whether it is acting as an SBR or not.

    I'm pretty confident on this because this is straight from the guidance my NFA trust attorney provided to me.
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  19. #59
    Boolit Master
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    I had copied this from a FAQ document but can't find it on the ATF site at the moment, so I'm a little uncomfortable that maybe ATF has changed their minds. This is what I had from a couple of years ago:

    Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?

    Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS. Question--control as in have it with you or have it at home?

    Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?

    There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/at...ter-2/download

    Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon. This is a direct quote from the document above.
    Last edited by Elkins45; 01-13-2018 at 08:55 PM.
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  20. #60
    Boolit Master


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    OK, a TC Contender can be a pistol and a rifle and the ATF can not do anything about it. They have an exemption for the TC if I remember right.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check