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Thread: short barreled rifle legality questions

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Electric88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    As a group, owners of NFA items that post on the internet tend to be obsessive about the law and interpretations thereof. I often wonder if these folks always drive the speed limit, ever jay walk, and report and pay sales taxes on out-of-state purchases.

    As pointed out above, that they tend to be obsessive, or maybe just that they like being in a special club with extensive rules and a high barrier to entry, doesn’t make them either well informed or correct.

    I built a pistol with a brace and suppressor, may sbr it some day, but not today.
    I imagine NFA owners are more obsessive about those laws than they are about speed limits and such because the penalty is (perceived or actually) more stiff on NFA violations. A speeding ticket is a slap on the wrist, compared to be being caught with NFA items and not abiding by those laws.

  2. #22
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    There are a bunch of other pistol braces out there besides the SIG brace.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Acording to Sig, the 'brace' will only work with their buffer tube. If you want an SBR, get the stamp and do it right. If a pistol, just get the lower as other and add the pistol tube. MOA @ 50 is pretty easy with the pistol.
    Whatever!

  4. #24
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    As a group, owners of NFA items that post on the internet tend to be obsessive about the law and interpretations thereof. I often wonder if these folks always drive the speed limit, ever jay walk, and report and pay sales taxes on out-of-state purchases.

    As pointed out above, that they tend to be obsessive, or maybe just that they like being in a special club with extensive rules and a high barrier to entry, doesn’t make them either well informed or correct.

    I built a pistol with a brace and suppressor, may sbr it some day, but not today.
    Jay walking isn't a federal crime, nor is speeding. That's why a NFA owner may be ultra conservative and stick to the fine line of NFA rules, and yet, still drive over the speed limit. A 5mph over the limit ticket won't be a trip to club fed for 20 years and a 250K$ fine.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric88 View Post
    I imagine NFA owners are more obsessive about those laws than they are about speed limits and such because the penalty is (perceived or actually) more stiff on NFA violations. A speeding ticket is a slap on the wrist, compared to be being caught with NFA items and not abiding by those laws.
    Correct... it's crazy to think otherwise. Penal code violation vs federal felony.. I'm surprised JimB even asked that question.... makes you wonder...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    As a group, owners of NFA items that post on the internet tend to be obsessive about the law and interpretations thereof. I often wonder if these folks always drive the speed limit, ever jay walk, and report and pay sales taxes on out-of-state purchases.

    As pointed out above, that they tend to be obsessive, or maybe just that they like being in a special club with extensive rules and a high barrier to entry, doesn’t make them either well informed or correct.

    I built a pistol with a brace and suppressor, may sbr it some day, but not today.
    Thanks for the insult. Hope it made you feel special.
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  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric88 View Post
    Yeah, that's one of the reasons I have held off from building an SBR. I live right on the border of Ohio, and shoot just as much in each state. I don't really care for the annoyance of getting a letter every time I want to shoot somewhere other than in Michigan. Maybe it's laziness, maybe it's playing with fire by using a "brace". Either way, I'm content not going SBR for now.

    At least there is no letter necessary when transporting suppressors. That would really be irritating.
    Not 100% certain, but I believe that the letter for interstate transport is filed annually, not each trip. May be worth investigating if it plays into your decision.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Electric88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Not 100% certain, but I believe that the letter for interstate transport is filed annually, not each trip. May be worth investigating if it plays into your decision.
    Last time I looked into it, I talked to a buddy of mine who already has SBRs and lives on the other side of the michigan/ohio line (so he had the same predicament) to see how he dealt with that. He indicated that at first he interpreted the law in the same way, and filed for a year at a time. After a couple years, he said the ATF denied the letter/application and said it was a per trip letter. They didn't remark that they would go after him for previous years doing that, but he just couldn't file in the same way any more.

    Again, this is from one individual who is not a dealer, but has NFA items and follows the applicable laws. Could be he understood wrong, or the ATF agent he said he spoke to was just winging it. I've debated it, and right now don't feel like throwing money at this rabbithole. Maybe one day. Until then, I've got a shockwave "blade" brace that hasn't been banned. Never did care for the Sig brace.

  9. #29
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    I went through the “trouble” of registering a lower and building a 9” 300blk SBR, I’m glad I did but probably wouldn’t do it again. I built an AR pistol to start and did the form 1 paperwork on it. You can buy a factory SBR from a number of companies and do a form 4 on it like you would with a can. The problem with an SBR is you need to file paperwork to cross state lines, which isn’t the case with a handgun of course.

    So it is beneficial to have a pistol lower around if you want to travel with it. I’d suggest looking at the SB Tactical PDW brace. I left MI about 10 years ago and don’t know current laws on handguns there dealing with 80% style guns but I’d look into doing that also.
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  10. #30
    Boolit Master


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    ATF opinion may have simply changed too.

  11. #31
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    yup big difference in a 50 dollar speeding fine then going to federal prison. Kid here local that my buddy knew had a mac 10 given to him. He stuck in a garbage bag and put it under his house. Never even shot the thing. Well he got stupid and showed some buddys the gun one night bragging on it and ya know what they say about loose lips. They raided his house took the gun and hes sitting for 5 years in the fed pen. One of my other buddys had an auto sear he bought back when they were legal. They day he heard that kid had been arrested he took it out on his boat in lake superior and fed it to the fish! I want NOTHING illegal in my house!
    Quote Originally Posted by Electric88 View Post
    I imagine NFA owners are more obsessive about those laws than they are about speed limits and such because the penalty is (perceived or actually) more stiff on NFA violations. A speeding ticket is a slap on the wrist, compared to be being caught with NFA items and not abiding by those laws.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  12. #32
    Boolit Master Electric88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    yup big difference in a 50 dollar speeding fine then going to federal prison. Kid here local that my buddy knew had a mac 10 given to him. He stuck in a garbage bag and put it under his house. Never even shot the thing. Well he got stupid and showed some buddys the gun one night bragging on it and ya know what they say about loose lips. They raided his house took the gun and hes sitting for 5 years in the fed pen. One of my other buddys had an auto sear he bought back when they were legal. They day he heard that kid had been arrested he took it out on his boat in lake superior and fed it to the fish! I want NOTHING illegal in my house!
    I'm with you there. I've had a few people come up to me with the various "wanna know how to make your AR full-auto?" etc., and each time my response is less than enthusiastic. NFA items are the wrong things to play games with. But as long as you have a pistol brace/buffer somewhere nearby and don't actually mate up the shorter lower to a receiver with a stock on it, you are perfectly legal.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Real problem being that a shoestring can count as an auto sear.

  14. #34
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    May I suggest an IWI X95?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Top one is a built 300 BLK pistol using a PSA upper with CHF barrel and shockwave buffer and blade.

    Second one is a FDE X95. This is a bullpup with 16" barrel.

    Third is a factory Sig M400 Elite pistol in 300 BLK.
    Last edited by osteodoc08; 01-09-2018 at 05:49 PM.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master


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    You can turn in any FA parts or guns or anything NFA to the BATF or Sheriff, or Chief law enforcement officer. Lots of WWII guns are turning up because of the owners are passing on. Their kids are cleaning out the houses and finding this stuff. You will never be charged with anything if you call right away and tell them you are going to turn them in.

    The BATF has already sent out letters to manufacturers that the pistol brace is legal and you can even put it up to your shoulder. Ya they may change their stance on it in the future, but who cares. Deal with it then.

    Right now pistols are legal so build it the cheap and legal and hassle free way.

  16. #36
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    The take it out of state form is a 5320.20. It can be filed for a term of no more than one year. I just did one to go hunting. Start date example 1.1.2018 to 1.1.2019. Reason listed was all legal purposes.
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. metalworker, woodworker, mechanic, restorer and 200.00 stamp collector

  17. #37
    Boolit Master


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    "all legal purposes"

    I love that type of response, unfortunately the two times I've had to use it when dealing with law enforcement I was given the stern look, had my personal space infringed upon in a imposing manor, probably meant as intimidation, and then 'asked' to answer again.

    Now the details:

    Situation 1, traffic stop. Late at night, dark open road inbetween two rural cities, I figured I was doing my part at the beginning to make it a safe situation. Pulled over, engine off, interior lights switched on, window down, hands on wheel. Police walks over, asks for drivers license. I hand over DL and my CCW. Police officer asks me to exit vehicle, then asks me if I am carrying. ( or maybee asked if I was carrying then asked me to exit.. Can't remember, its been 20+ years). I was asked 'why' I owned a firearm. I gave the ' any legal reason' answer. Visibly made the officer angry, he did the lean in and point thing and reasked the question. Figuring it was getting ready to go badly for me I then answered ' lawfull self defense'. He looked unsatisfied, then wanted to look thru the wrapped presents in my cars backseat ( was traveling to a party ). Told me to get in the car Walked away, wrote probably the biggest ticket he could think of, then after signing and leaving, he tailgated me to the city limits.. imho, there was some borderline attitude problem with that officer, but I knew to keep my mouth shut unless spoken to once I figured out my immediate future was in the hands of a unpleasant acting person.

    #2

    Bringing my first form 4 into my local sheriff's Dept for the CLO signoff. Our Sheriff at the time had an investigator do a few day investigation/background check, then they'd call you in for an interview and Q&A, then if all was good, the sheriff would sign. Sheriff did not like the ' any lawful purpose ' statement on the back of the form where you write in why you want the NFA item. I asked if 'personal collection' worked better for him. Got the nod, and then I put that on the form 4, got the signature and left.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    New law with regard to law inforcement notification is just that. Hey, i'm buying this, if you have a legal reason I cannot own it you can respond. No longer asking someones opinion. All legal purposes is a valid reason. Don't like it? Discuss it with the lawyer when I sue for harassment and illegal detention. My only suppressor on a form 4 personal reason stated was collector. Signed with no issues. I do not do well with "i'm gonna throw my weight around" from anyone. The law is the law. I know it as it pertains to me and my hobby, I expect them to know it because its their job. If they don't i'll be happy to point out statutes and the pertaining laws while they get someone on scene who is smarter and a higher authority than they are. Only had issue once where cop wasn't happy I didn't tell him I had a gun in the car. Informed him that in the state of florida I am only required to provide that information when specifically asked it. Upon him asking I provided that information. He started to pull the gun from the holster and I informed him it was loaded with a round in the chamber, he put it back. Several others have asked if i was carrying and when I informed him I was and offered my permit he said nope your fine. No problems.
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. metalworker, woodworker, mechanic, restorer and 200.00 stamp collector

  19. #39
    Boolit Master


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    Yup, some shouldn't be in law enforcement.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Apologies to all for my snarkyness and attitude, these discussions always move from what the law requires to paranoia and I just wish that folk would do just what the law requires and stop trying to scare folks that are asking for advice. I obviously communicated that very very poorly.

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