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Thread: Long shots are for bad hunters, article

  1. #41
    Boolit Man GEOMETRIC's Avatar
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    I think many of these guys that say they can shoot dime or nickel size groups are fooling themselves. Just because you shot a 1/2", 200 yd. group once upon a time with a sand bag rest doesn't mean you can do it consistently under field conditions. There is a huge difference between shooting at a game animal at range, that is moving. They characteristically don't give you a lot of time. Even if you tote a range finder everywhere you go, game doesn't usually hang around forever waiting for you to get it out and take a reading. Modern rifles shoot pretty flat up to about 300 yds. but after that bullets start dropping like a lead balloon & knowing the range becomes essential to reliably hitting anything. Military sniper teams generally have a spotter with a spotting scope & a range finder. I don't think they take very many running shots.
    There is a time & place for most everything. There are guys that take shooting benches, range finders, spotting scopes & such in the field & set up where they can see game at extreme range. If hauling a pickup truck full of junk everywhere you hunt works for you, go for it but that severely restricts flexibility & doesn't fit my hunting situation.

    I just re-read some of the previous posts & was reminded of a hunt my gunsmith told me about. This guy is an accomplished rifle shot. He shoots on a rifle team & claims to have made a number of 500 yd. or so shots. He was on a stand overlooking a cut hay field when a buck came out at 100 yds. or so. If this had happened to me, I wouldn't have told anybody! So, he shoots & misses. This buck is rut crazy & trying hard to commit suicide & comes out again & again & he misses again & again. My gunsmith finally goes out in the field & climbs on top of a big hay bail & the buck comes out yet another time & he finally kills it. Go figure! I don't know if there is a lesson in this or not but it makes me wonder.
    Last edited by GEOMETRIC; 01-08-2018 at 09:56 AM.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    dime sized groups only tell what the rifle,cartridge,bullet and powder
    combination is capable of in the controlled environment which it was fired
    I don't think anyone claims they can do it at will what it does do is give the
    shooter hunter confidence in that rifle load combination
    I see this thread with alot of inferred hunter ethics and shooting abilities
    just because some people take the time to figure out what load combo
    works for them in a given rifle is their confidence and that brings to the
    hunting game a whole lot more than slamming someone for doing something
    differently than you do
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Goes along with those "bughole....dime size" groups we read about.....

    Attachment 211153

    ......
    Love it, gotta get me one of those.
    Evangelical, deplorable redneck and proud of it.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by CastingFool View Post
    When I am deerhunting, and hear 3 or more shots, I know the first shot missed, and then the "hunter" is shooting at a running deer.
    If they can't hit a still deer, what makes them think they can hit one running.....
    Evangelical, deplorable redneck and proud of it.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    I am with you guys. Just because you can shoot dimes at 100 yards or ring the 500 yard gong doesn't mean you can hit a game animal especially if you have buck fever or the critter is moving. I know my limitations and I know in a field setting I can't shoot anywhere near as well as in a controlled environment off sand bags. I think the reason those that do long range shooting limit there shots is they know their limits. They know how much is involved at shooting those distances. There are many that have no idea how much a bullet drops at 500 yards.

    Took my 15 year old nephew out to shoot before his first deer hunt. I had him shoot off sand bags. He easily put 3 inside 1" at 100 yards, I then had him shoot with just the front rest and no rear and his group got much worse. I then had him shoot offhand and I think his group may have been in the 6-8" range. Made him realize how difficult it is to shoot off hand. He shot his first deer with just the front rest and hit the perfect double lung, right where I told him to shoot. Everyone should practice various conditions at the range to simulate field conditions.

    I know I can't shoot off hand worth a flip. If more than about 50 yards, I find something to prop against or on. If I can't hold the cross hairs steady, I don't shoot.

    Rosewood
    Evangelical, deplorable redneck and proud of it.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by richhodg66 View Post
    It's quite well known among bowhunters that deer are quite capable of jumping the string. Same principle here. I personally think 25 yards is about max with most bows. I have seen guys on ranges do some amazing things with compound bows and releases and such. Many guys can keep them in a group the size of a deer's vitals at 70 yards. Watch an arrow travel 70 yards and count how long and how much of an arc the arrow makes on it's way. Target range is fine, I hope they don't try it on deer.

    For the past several years, the vast majority of my deer have been shot at 50 yards or less. Several have been darn near straight down shots. Are there places around me where a long shot could present itself? Sure, but I think most guys who shoot deer at long range set themselves up for those kinds of shots. Rule number 1; get close. Rule number 2; get closer.
    The difference between a bow and a rifle is the bow is subsonic and the deer can hear the string release before the arrow gets there. No doubt a 100 yard shot is risky as the deer will have plenty of time to jump before the arrow gets there. For a typical rifle, you may be 800 yards or more before the bullet goes subsonic, the deer will not here the boom until well after the bullet gets there.

    I agree, about 25 yards or so is the point at which the deer hears the string and his reaction time allows him to start to move. Had a guy tell me he thought that was where the arrow went subsonic. Had to tell him an arrow is always subsonic, the deer just has to have time to react to hearing it.

    Rosewood
    Evangelical, deplorable redneck and proud of it.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    Buck fever I might get; Chuck fever and Coyote fever I'm LONG ago over though :P
    Lots of ways to shoot stably if varmint hunting; When I resume I'll be shooting from the vehicle, as my knees are SHOT, and seated in the vehicle with a foam or rubber cover over the top of the window is a pretty dang good rest.
    Have to get back into practice, and practice lots more! So back to getting my reloading setup working, lots of ammo to process
    It definitely helps you shoot well when you are certain that you CAN shoot well, are calm, paying attention to your heartbeat, breathing, the wind, and the target. Being sure you CANNOT hit the target's a good way to miss! Enough practice helps here

  8. #48
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Yes, the 'boom' takes a while to get there but the 'crack' travels with the boolit. There is still the 'reaction' time. Example, shot at a pig ~25 yds away. Buddy thought he saw it duck/flinch - or a hit? Super S BO round.
    Whatever!

  9. #49
    i CAN shoot bugholes on my bullsbag. when i take it off and go to tree limb or trunk then it will NOT shoot bugholes. 1 1/2 - 3" at 100 yards is fine by me(tree limb or trunk). most of my deer, that i have killed, are 40-50 yards or less. i never have shot a deer more than 250 yards(this was before laser range finder). a 100-250 yards is what i consider to be a long shot. and i have done 3 or 4 long shots. i won't shoot a deer over 300 yards, no matter if i laser range find it or not. i hunt deer, i don't shoot them for targets on a range. thats not hunting, but target shooting.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Yes, the 'boom' takes a while to get there but the 'crack' travels with the boolit. There is still the 'reaction' time. Example, shot at a pig ~25 yds away. Buddy thought he saw it duck/flinch - or a hit? Super S BO round.

    The speed of sound is apx. 1125 FPS depending on temp and altitude. All supersonic projectiles create their own sonic boom or "crack". The sound wave starts at the tip of the bullet and the shock/sound wave fails behind the bullet. At the point of impact the sonic boom and the bullet arrive at the same time so there is zero reaction time to the sonic boom of the bullet.


    Start at the 5 minute mark.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-08-2018 at 06:12 PM.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by CastingFool View Post
    When I am deerhunting, and hear 3 or more shots, I know the first shot missed, and then the "hunter" is shooting at a running deer.
    OMG I'm the exception to the rule AGAIN!!!! LOL

    I've killed 3 deer in the last 3 years that the FIRST shot put it down (spine hit) but after being down the target gets much smaller. So between the excitement and smaller target it took a few more to hit the neck and finish the job.

    So if you hear me shoot more than once it's not because the first shot missed.

    Motor

  12. #52
    Boolit Master



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    Me too. Some times I have as many as 5 tags in my pocket (normally 2 or 3).

    The land that I hunted on from 1970 to 2005 about 3,000 acres of river bottom land with irrigated corn and lots of heavy woods. The owner hated deer and wanted them all shot. Opening day was stands only than after that stands in the morning and deer drives after that. Every year 20 to 30 hunters would take 50 to 60 deer off his land.

    About 15 years ago I had tags for 2 bucks and a doe. I was in the tree stand when 2 bucks chased a doe by my tree stand. I dropped a very nice buck on the first shot. At the shot the doe stopped unsure what direction to run. That was a mistake. With the second shot the other buck did a 180 and came back towards me. That was also a mistake. Three shots with three deer down within 30 yards of each other in under 30 seconds.

    In 1978 I did the same thing from the same stand but it didn't work out so well. Mule deer would never come down into the heavy woods but three Muley bucks must have gotten pushed down from the hills. The shots three dead deer. I had no idea that they where Mule deer until I went to gut them. Mule deer required a Mule deer tag that I did not have nor did any of the other hunters what wanted deer shot for them. With a gratis tag you could tag anything so the land owner took one and one of the neighbors a couple of miles away took one. The last went to a friend that was 18 miles away. Gratis tags are only for the land owner on their own land. That cost me several cases of beer and gutting and dragging deer for the guys that helped me out. It only took them about 5 years to forget about it.

    Hunter skill varied greatly. Some really good shooters and some very poor shooters and some neighboring farmers that just had wheat fields and no deer. They just wanted deer for their fall sausage making so party hunting was the norm. Dad was on stand when 3 bucks came by as a group. He killed all three and at the end of the drive 2 more buck came by. He killed those also.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-09-2018 at 02:53 AM.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master reloader28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by largom View Post
    Shooting at long ranges is just that "shooting". When you stalk up to a short range that's HUNTING!
    Stalking is an awesome way to hunt and I love it.

    BUT 90% of the people posting on this do nothing more than sit on their but in a tree stand or blind and wait for something to "happen" to walk by. Then brag about their "skill"

  14. #54
    Boolit Master reloader28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Sheesh View Post
    Not everyone can stalk up close in the woods. Veteran I know lost too much while serving, he's NOT likely to be taking 50 yard shots as the deer over there don't get that close.

    Let me put it another way. In the gulf wars etc., military snipers have taken shots out to HOW far, and made 1 shot kills? When those folks come home, do you think their shooting skills vanish when they leave the service? Yes, they're not Joe Sixpack who lives next door and can't hit anything at 100 yards. So?
    This has always griped me. Everyone will flat throw you in jail for shooting something farther than they have the ability to do. DO NOT WHATSOEVER shoot a deer farther than 250yds. BUT these same guys think nothing of shooting at prairie dogs or rock chucks at 400-600yds.

    Not once have I ever heard these same people complain about ethics when a sniper is shooting at a man at 1500+yds and takes him 2 shots to dial in.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by kmrra View Post
    of all the deer that I have killed I have never shot one over 100 yards, and that was way back when I could see good
    I just can't imagine shooting an animal 800 yards away.. and then walking that extra 800 yards thru teraine, and then hump that load back, plus how far I had already walked before I shot it.

    I'd rather be a better stalker and shoot something at +/- 100 yards, and know what's between me and the dropped game.

    How many of us have been hiking , seen a point we wanted to get to thru a clearing that was 5-7-800 yds away.. and then start traveling thru the underbrush to get there only to find out that 400 yds away you have to cross a stream or a ravine or a ridge you can't scale and have to divert a 1/4 mile to get around...

    Where I live, you can't take more than a +/- 100 yard shot anyway just due to natural barriers.

  16. #56
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reloader28 View Post
    This has always griped me. Everyone will flat throw you in jail for shooting something farther than they have the ability to do. DO NOT WHATSOEVER shoot a deer farther than 250yds. BUT these same guys think nothing of shooting at prairie dogs or rock chucks at 400-600yds.

    I think all these 'rules' stem from the fact that some would like for others to have a little more respect for the game animals they try to harvest. Making a humane kill, a quick kill and the like...

    Not once have I ever heard these same people complain about ethics when a sniper is shooting at a man at 1500+yds and takes him 2 shots to dial in.
    Hunting 'man' is a different sport all together. Mankind has put more money and effort into this sport than any other thing I can think of. We have been refining our methods of killing our fellow humans since we first wrote about it on clay tablets and papyrus. If a sniper trainee can't cut it in one shot...well, they can just put him in a Mortar Team! One way or another we will eventually drive ourselves into extenction...hopefully we can accomplish this before all the other species give out...
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    just, "watch your 6" .

  17. #57
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by reloader28 View Post
    Stalking is an awesome way to hunt and I love it.

    BUT 90% of the people posting on this do nothing more than sit on their but in a tree stand or blind and wait for something to "happen" to walk by. Then brag about their "skill"
    Agreed... the thrill of hunting for me is when the game can see me and has their full chance to outsmart and evade me.

    Shooting something that is over a half mile away and has no chance to see me is not hunting.. it's target shooting...

  18. #58
    Boolit Master


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    In some places you're lucky to draw a single tag and the season is short. No excuse to shoot beyond your ability even then. However, 200+ yard shots are many places the norm. You'll not get closer regardless of how good a "hunter" you are. Not everyone has a month+ long season, 5 tags and a tree stand or blind. Still, no reason to shoot beyond your ability.

    Problem is too many think they can buy that ability.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  19. #59
    Boolit Man

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    Problem is too many think they can buy that ability.

    Man, that's a big 10-4

  20. #60
    Boolit Master
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    When the other guy is shooting at your guys it sorta changes the ethics of the situation. Snipers would have to live with themselves afterwards - and I'd imagine that knowing that the other guy was an actively hostile shooter makes that a lot easier.

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