Overall length for RCBS 30-180-SP in 30-30 win Model 94

[scrapcan]

Well I have learked, I mean learned from teh site for the last 6 months and have tried to glean as much as I can without being a pain. I have been shooting cast for about 15 years and have tried to read what ever I could get my hands on. some stuff you just can't get anywhere but right here!

Thanks for all your sharing of information. Now on to one of the questions at hand.

I have an RCBS 30-180-SP and an RCBS 30-180-FN, don't ask they were cheap.

I like the shape of the SP and would like to try it in my Win 94 24 inch rifle. The trouble I am having is determining the correct overall length to feed fromt he tube. I set the length by fitting to a light engraving of the first driving band, but it is to long to feed out of the tube. Did the same for the FN, same results.

I have been tempted to offer a trade for ye old Lyman 311041, but it seems that nobody wants to part with one. Also thought about buying the lee mold equivalent (missed the group buy for the 6 holer, anybody have a spare?) but since I have the two in hand thought I would try one of them first.

Also anybody have pet load to pass on using either of these bullets? I read the past postings and thought I would see if anybody has anythng new.

Anybody tried the surplus aa-2230C with cast bullets? for the 30-30 or other cases?


The rifle is another story. it is an NRA commerative rifle with half magazine. It was fired and my wife bought it for a really attractive price. Shot just enough to see how it would print for the previous owner, I got the remaining 14 cartridges and the box from when it was purchased. shoots pretty well but the sights have got to go. I am also looking for a receiver sight and a larger post front sight. I am by no means to the age of reason so age has no bearing on good eyesight (damn those genetics, if you could only pick them ahead of time finding that perfect date would be much easier).

Thanks for all your help and keep sharing the info. I like casting and shooting, but being able to not make the same mistakes as everyone else is priceless and guarantess success in a more timely manner.

Jeremy

[XBT]

Jeremy, I have both the RCBS .30-180-FP and .30-180-SP and they both cast very good boolits. In your 30-30 I would recommend using the FP, because the SP is too pointed to be safe for use in a tubular magazine.

The top groove in the .30-180-FP was designed as a crimping groove and if you seat the boolit to that groove and use a moderate roll crimp you will have an overall length of about 2.510 inches, which should work fine in your gun.

[scrapcan]

XBT,

Thanks for the reply. I too have had good bullets drop out of both molds. I am shooting the SP with one in the chamber only. Aside from that I plan on shooting paper with the SP and would still load a tube full of proper sized flat points for serious work.

I have seen a marlin 336 that had three rounds touch off due to round nose lyman and a worn cartridge stop. Cartridge hung on the stop and then all three jammed back to a sudden stop. broke the loading gate and sent brass scrapnel into shooters arm (best friend) and bystander behind and right (me). Learned two things 1) make sure you know if your gun is in good working order 2) things happen that should not and no need to push your luck with to pointed of a bullet.

In the last issue of Cast bullet Association Fouling Shot there was an article about detonation in a tube magazine caused by bullet tips, I have seriously thought about sending in the above story. But I feel that it may not have been the bullet that caused the problem, yet caused by the cartridge stop. None the less I saw it happen, and with a bullet that has been touted as a great bullet for tube magazines.

By the way that 336 marline carbine was the second gun that I cast bullets for. the first was a model 92 that was converted to a 38 special. That was in 1986 ( I am now 34), I was a sophomore in High School and we found the tools in the basement of my friends house and his dad said we were welcome to learn as long as we were safe and followed what the reloading books told us to do. Not sure we followed the rules as close as we should have, but it kept us off the streets and was cheaper than drinking the beer that our other friends were spending their money on. I am not old or particulary knowledgeable but hey that is why the rest of you are here, remember to teach me well I am going to be your future

I should have phrased my question in a better fashion. Is there a problem with seating the bullet and GC below the neck? i was worried about gas/flame cutting on the exposed lead bullet.

By the way I have shot the SP single loaded with 33 grains of WWII surplus H4831. This was last night. I have not shot the rifle very much due to playing with a 7mm06 ackley improved. But I was able to shoot 2 inch at 50 yrds with the 4831 load. I think it will do better with a better choice of powder and possibly bullet.

Powder is an amazing chemical composition if stored correctly. This is the last pound of a lot of powder that was with the loading tools that got me hooked on cast bullets. Man have I used the 4831 in an interesting assemblage of cartridges, hate to see it run out. It has been good to have enough of one lot of powder to last almost 20 years.

keep the comments coming.

[carpetman]

Manleyjt--Welcome to the board--glad you decided to come out of the closet. Dont take this as flame,just offering my thoughts which are 180 different than yours. To me using a Spire point in the chamber makes no sense. Either your first shot--if sighted in for the flats or the subsequent shots if sighted in for the spires will not be on. So you in effect either have a single shot or the first shot is just a guess. YES---you know that spire point goes in Chamber ONLY. Murphy's Law--it will wind up someplace else either by you or maybe someone not knowing. In my books a pet rattlesnake. Get maybe a .308 if shooting the spire points is the goal.

[BlueMoon]

manleyjt,

I have a old RCBS-30-150sp that casts bullets about 160grns and it's a little too pointed for a tube magazine like others have said. And have some old RCBS load data for the 30/30 that says they used a bolt action rifle for the 180-sp because of the point.

I do have a 8lb jug of the AA2230-C that I used with the RCBS-180-FN bullet in my 30/30. I used 27.0grns and a OAL of 2.570" and my bullets are weighing about 194grns gc'ed and lubed. My crony showed 1888fps for 3 shot average. and OK accuracy at 50yds. I don't know if I'll go up or down with the next try since I don't really trust ball powder for cast loads without any filler. My Marlin (mg barrel) usually does better with 150-173grn lead bullets at 2000fps or over.

The old RCBS data I have shows powders like IMR4831, W748, 3031, H322, and #2400 with the 180-FN that I may try also. It also shows using H110, Red Dot and 700X but I don't think I'll bother with those.

Bill

edit: The data show the 180-SP as 175grns and the 180-FN as 187grns and the same powders used for both

[scrapcan]

Carpetman,

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree whole heartedly on not loading the Semi Point as RCBS calls it in any large quantity. I wanted to try it for paper. I generally try to load only what I will shoot at that range visit, record results, and then load for next visit. I think I am more of the opinion to not even worry about the 30-180-SP just put it back in the cabinet and use it for the 308, 300sav, 30-06 (would ike to try to come up with a load that will function in the Garand).

BlueMoon,

Thanks for the response and the data. they are what I have on hand also. Except for the AA2230C that is good info.

To all,

I originally had the ide of trying the SP (some years ago) after reading Sam Fadala's book Winchester's 30-30, Model 94: The Rifle America Loves. He did some testing with the 150 speer mag-tip (also too pointed for tube magazine). At the time I was using a ruger No.1 varmint weight 25-06 as my main hunting rifle, it was a nice plains game gun but was not fun to carry for hunting in timber. I like the carry aspects of the 94 and thought hey 2 rounds is better than 1 and 100 yd shot in the timber here in wyoming is a long shot just as it is for other folks who hunt in forests and woodlands in other parts of the country. It took me several years to come up with a 94 that I liked (10 years to be exact).

Thanks to all, and now that I have been properly welcomed I will post more often. this is only me second postings, first was in the gunsmith tips looking for a mauser 98 receiver tap. I have a few mausers to play with also, standard military issue 98/22 8mm, santabarbara commercial action beign built into a 22-250 for cast bullets, and a7mm-06 ackley improved that is the current time consumer.

I will have to leave that in the fantasy part of the brain and keep to more safety conscience loadings.

[Doughty]

manleyjt

Another thing to consider is the bullet's diameter and how it relates to seating depth. A larger diameter bullet will contact the lands at a shorter OAL than a smaller diameter bullet. Sometimes this difference can be profound. My experience has been to make the diameter of the bullet as large as you can without forcing the round into the chamber. In one instance I found best results by going up to .315 in a .309 barrel. I did this by increasing diameter .001 at a time. I didn't have a .316 bullet or I would have tried that too.

Good luck.

[w30wcf]

manleyjt,
I have both molds and have used them in my .30-30's. With regards to seating the bullet below the case neck, I have found that the slow burning powders are very forgiving and produce fine accuracy. My favorite load with both bullets is 36 grs. of H414 or W760 sparked by a WLR primer.

Interesting and unfortunate about the magazine mishap. I have never heard of another incident using that bullet in the .30-30. I've used many of them myself with no problem.

Would you happen to know if the rear most cartridge fired? If so, then the primer was struck hard enough by the impact into the cartridge carrier which would not be the fault of the bullet.

Over the years, .30-30 factory ammunition has been loaded with bullets that had fairly small flat points. For example: the 110 gr. H.P. loaded from 1925- early 1950's, full patch round nosed bullets 1895 - early 1960's and the current Speer Ammunition using their 150 and 170 gr bullets. If there was a problem, the factories wouldn't have loaded them.

That is because .30-30 cartridges do not stack up with the bullet nose resting directly on the primer of the cartridge in front of it. If one observes the way they come from the magazine into the carrier of a '94 Winchester, one will see that the bullet noses alternate from left to right to left, etc.

The flat nose on my 180 gr.SP is about the same diameter as the 110 gr. h.p. (.12") and bigger than the round nosed full patch loadings. I have put prussian blue on the tips of these bullets and loaded them into the magazine.
When they were run through the action and ejected, there was no blueing on the primers whatsoever, only on the back of the cartridge case.

With that information, I have loaded the 180SP (in my alloy, ww.+ 2% tin and heat treated they weigh 192 grs.) for the NRA Cowboy Silhouette 200 meter steel rams. The better ballistic profile will provide a little extra insurance of downing the 55# target. I load them to crimp over the front band to an o.a.l. of 2.540" which work fine from my rifle's magazine.

They work GREAT!

Have fun,
w30wcf

[scrapcan]

w30wcf,

great to hear of your success with the SP. I am up in the air over the whole size of the flat nose to use. I am with you on the current bullet offerings in commercial ammunition. I was also very suprised at you research using the layout blue, good to know and something for all of us to think about.

On the marlin 336. The three cartridges that were in the tube all went off. bullet was still in the neck of the one near the carrier and the next in line, last one in the tube (front most) was opened up like you unzipped it. What I think happened after close inspection, was that there was a large burr on the cartridge cuttoff that held it up long enough to let it go and it hit the carrier and went off causing enough shake and rattle to cause the other two to go off. This is not a normal situation that you would find, but none the less I saw it happen. With new parts and careful inspection before reassembly, that rifle is still a good shooter.

Thanks for the info, I will take another look at punching holes with the SP.

[BlueMoon]

manleyjt,

I just loaded some more of the 180FN in 30/30 cases and most ended up with a OAL of 2.570" plus or minus after I crimped with a LFCD. My Marlin's throat is probably different than yours but it felt like I was right about into the rifling but the gas check was about to leave the neck.

The 2230C did just as good as the other two powders I tried but this time I used H414, W748, 3031, H322, and #2400. My 180FN were sized to .310" and I had to use the universal Lee bell die to get the bullets started in the cases. Hope to test them next week sometime.

Bill

[w30wcf]

manleyjt,

Thank you for the update on the cartridges that ignited in the tube and carrier. Since all three went, the culprit has to be something that impacted the primer on the cartridge going back into the carrier which is not a fault of the bullet.

If you are shooting game, definitely use the 180FN. I use the 180SP for longer range shooting at steel targets. It's better ballistic profile is a plus for that application.

BlueMoon,
Good luck on your testing. Let us know how it goes.

Sincerely,
w30wcf

[MaxJon]

Which is best for 300m the SO or the FP? In .308