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Thread: Rust Bluing Problems - Spots and streaks in finish after carding

  1. #21
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by pietro View Post
    Welcome aboard !

    With all due respect, FORGET about a "next" cycle.......... IMO you'll be adding insult to injury with additional applications.

    Whatever's wrong is already in the steel, and all the previous bluing needs be removed with vinegar (?) and the bluing started over from scratch (I would go, using LAGS & stockcarver's tips, above).



    In any event, I hope all here have a very HAPPY NEW YEAR ! !



    .
    Unfortunately you are probably right. I am going to boil my current cycle and if it does not improve I will begin to remove the bluing and start from scratch.
    JW

    "Be Thankful We're Not Getting All The Government Were Paying For" - Will Rogers
    "If a man can't piss in his own front yard, he's living to close to town." - Edward Abbey via Tom Russell

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    I've found with black- rust blueing (Belgium Blue or cold blue) that some metals tend to red-rust oxidize more quickly in some areas than in other areas. The blueing process then tends to not black- rust blue those already red- rust oxidized areas to a uniform color. I've used a green scrub pad, wet with the black-rust blueing solution, to gently scrub and break- through the red- rust oxide coating/discolored areas. Initial "carding" has to be vigorous enough to break-through these red-rust oxidized areas so that the black-rust blueing liquid, present in the scrub pad, can start the black- rust bluing process before the metal re-oxidizes to red rust. The various ferrous and ferric oxides, that can form on metal, differ in color.

    Hope this helps.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  3. #23
    Boolit Mold
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    Well the last cycle din't work any better. At this point I'm just wasting time and materials. I am going to remove the bluing re-polish and start from scratch, keeping in mind all the suggestions you guys have made. I need to re-think my method. I guess I just got lucky in the past. I will work on building a steamer so that water quality is not an issue. I imagine I can use tap water if I am steaming correct? I will also focus on degreasing and extra-cleanliness along the way. It might be a week or two before I can get back into this project so I will update when I continue. Thanks for all the suggestions. Here are some pictures I tried to take of the streaks though just to ponder.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The streak is the dark mark just left of center.
    JW

    "Be Thankful We're Not Getting All The Government Were Paying For" - Will Rogers
    "If a man can't piss in his own front yard, he's living to close to town." - Edward Abbey via Tom Russell

  4. #24
    Boolit Mold
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is some of the uneven finish to the left of the glare. I know its difficult to see.
    What I find odd is that it will disappear and reappear in different areas after another boiling, and sometimes the finish is almost perfect except for 1 or 2 streaks in separate areas. Oh well, when at first you don't succeed...take a break... and then try, try, and try again.

    Happy New Year!
    JW

    "Be Thankful We're Not Getting All The Government Were Paying For" - Will Rogers
    "If a man can't piss in his own front yard, he's living to close to town." - Edward Abbey via Tom Russell

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Those are streaks from oil.
    It is best that you start from scratch as suggested.
    I am glad that the others as well as myself can guide you thru this.
    For many years I fumbled with doing it on my own ,and relying different processes.
    Then I took that one class at a custom rifle shop.
    What a difference when they teach you in a real life situation.
    I got to learn what to do if something goes wrong, and that not all guns or metal blue the same.
    But I have rust blued or Browned guns with everything from Drano, Navel Jelly and even Browned using Vinegar.
    So Please heed your instructions that have been provided to you.
    We all have to learn somewhere.
    This forum is a great place to seek the knowledge that you desire.
    You cant get that from some YouTube Video that was made under Perfect conditions.
    They never tell you what to look for if something goes wrong, and you cant ask in most cases.
    I do gunsmithing as MY hobby, I do not do it for a living.
    But I take pride in my work, and am willing to pass my knowledge on to others.
    Forget the steam method for NOW.
    Learn to walk , before you try to run.
    You are HOOKED.
    There will be plenty more guns down the line for you to play with.
    Been there , Done that.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    I used to blue guns years ago. one of the biggest problem I would run into is getting all the oil off. some time the steel wool will have oil in it and you will have to burn that out of the steel wool.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbt50 View Post
    I used to blue guns years ago. one of the biggest problem I would run into is getting all the oil off. some time the steel wool will have oil in it and you will have to burn that out of the steel wool.
    How do you burn the oil out without ruining the steel wool?
    Missing the target is not the worst thing you can do.
    Not taking the shot is.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    Say LAGS, I've been thinking about browning a rifle. Is the process any different apart from the boiling operation to convert the iron oxide?
    Missing the target is not the worst thing you can do.
    Not taking the shot is.

  9. #29
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGS View Post
    Those are streaks from oil.
    It is best that you start from scratch as suggested.
    I am glad that the others as well as myself can guide you thru this.
    For many years I fumbled with doing it on my own ,and relying different processes.
    Then I took that one class at a custom rifle shop.
    What a difference when they teach you in a real life situation.
    I got to learn what to do if something goes wrong, and that not all guns or metal blue the same.
    But I have rust blued or Browned guns with everything from Drano, Navel Jelly and even Browned using Vinegar.
    So Please heed your instructions that have been provided to you.
    We all have to learn somewhere.
    This forum is a great place to seek the knowledge that you desire.
    You cant get that from some YouTube Video that was made under Perfect conditions.
    They never tell you what to look for if something goes wrong, and you cant ask in most cases.
    I do gunsmithing as MY hobby, I do not do it for a living.
    But I take pride in my work, and am willing to pass my knowledge on to others.
    Forget the steam method for NOW.
    Learn to walk , before you try to run.
    You are HOOKED.
    There will be plenty more guns down the line for you to play with.
    Been there , Done that.

    When I first started I read ALOT of forums and old gunsmithing texts on the subject to gain as much knowledge. But your right, there is nothing like hands on experience and that is what I am trying to gain now. I appreciate all the help. I figure if I start learning now in 10 or 20 years and a dozen rifles or so I might know a thing or two. I don't plan on being a full time gunsmith but I am HOOKED already as you say and do strive for professional results.
    JW

    "Be Thankful We're Not Getting All The Government Were Paying For" - Will Rogers
    "If a man can't piss in his own front yard, he's living to close to town." - Edward Abbey via Tom Russell

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    @ JW.
    I too back in 1976 had no intention of being a professional Gunsmith, even though my Grandfather was.
    I just wanted to make my guns look and shoot the best they could.
    Well that is more than 200 rifles later, and I still have over 40 that I Own and am trying to Restore or build.
    I come on this forum to get knowledge that I want, and am able to share things that others need to know.
    But who knows, I am close to retirement from my career, and I may hang out my Shingle and do this in my Semi Retirement to make ends meet.
    When I took those classes at a local Custom Rifle Shop, the instructor almost didn't let me enroll because he said I knew too much already, ( or he thought I was full of sheep dip saying I had done so many things and had never taken a Gunsmith Class )
    But once he saw my work, he was dumbfounded.
    But after the classes, My rifles looked so much better, and took far less time to build.
    Knowledge is King.
    Bank away all you can now, and someday it will pay you back three fold.
    Last edited by LAGS; 12-31-2017 at 07:04 PM.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    @ JW and others.
    Go to Second hand Book Stores.
    I go there and buy old Gunsmithing Books for dirt cheap.
    They are usually OLD and back from the 50's and 60's But sometimes the OLD methods are Best, or things you can do at home with simple tools or limited materials.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    @ Hannibal.
    It has been years since I did a old fashioned Brown Finish.
    I use to do them on Muzzle loaders.
    I would buff the barrels or parts down till almost shiny.
    Then coat them with Vinegar or some other Mild Acid.( Drano, or Navel Jelly)
    Then stand it outside in the weather till it started to rust.
    Then I would buff the rust off with Cleaned steel wool until all the loose rust came off, but not down to the Bare metal.
    Then another coat of acid, and repeat the process several times.
    No Boiling or converting involved.
    Then when you got the Brown Patina you wanted, you oiled it and you where done.
    My Grand father showed me that method back in the 60's when I was just a kid.
    He used a shovel in his yard as an example, a New shovel will rust.
    But every time you use it , the rust gets buffed down.
    Then after years of rusting on its own and getting buffed down from use, the metal gets a Rust Patina that does not rust and eat into the metal any more.
    The acid just speeds up the process, and you can control the finish better.
    But for most people, this takes too long.
    They just want a Instant finish, or a Set it and Forget it Process.
    The last one I did was a Mauser 98/22 Turk that I wanted to look old.
    I have two more of them and may decide to do one of them in the rust Brown finish again.
    Last edited by LAGS; 12-31-2017 at 07:31 PM.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
    John 242's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWalker View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bluing Blotchiness.jpg 
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ID:	210781

    Here is some of the uneven finish to the left of the glare. I know its difficult to see.
    What I find odd is that it will disappear and reappear in different areas after another boiling, and sometimes the finish is almost perfect except for 1 or 2 streaks in separate areas. Oh well, when at first you don't succeed...take a break... and then try, try, and try again.

    Happy New Year!
    If I'm not mistaken, that barrel is screwed into the receiver. At least that's what it looks like to me. What looks to be the cylinder of the barrel shows obvious signs of contamination, likely weeping out from the threads.

    For rust bluing, the most trouble free method is to remove the barrel from the receiver. If that's not possible, you need to de-grease the heck out of where the barrel screws into the receiver and any other place you parts you couldn't remove. If you don't, you'll get spotting. The same holds true for hinge pins or any other parts with metal to metal contact. These areas trap oil and cause headaches when rust bluing.

    It is very difficult to get all of the oil out of the threads with the barrel installed. When converting your red rust to black, the heat from the boiling water causes the oils to weep out of the threads, contaminating your part and possibly the water as well.
    I would consider dumping your tank and scrubbing it with Dawn dish soap, rinse it thoroughly with distilled water. Let it dry and spray it down with denatured alcohol.

    The best product I've used to remove contamination is Dulite 45 caustic cleaner. Caustic cleaners work very well and are worth the investment if you plan on doing more than one gun; however, they do require the investment of a tank, burner, thermometer, space for the set up, etc. I use a tank of cleaner to clean my steel wool as well as the gun parts I'm working on.
    http://www.du-lite.com/dulite_cleaning_compounds.html

    Another option is to gently heat where the barrel screws into the receiver with a propane torch. The key word is GENTLY! You want to burn out the oil that's in the threads, not change the heat treat of the steal. Heat causes the oil to weep out, or burn up. This also works for hinge pins on shotguns that always hold contamination and cause spotting. Again, don't overheat the steel. You want to burn the oil out, not heat the metal to the point that you alter heat treat.

    After trying to burn out that oil, you'll need to degrease again. If you don't have caustic cleaner, then acetone works well, but I was taught to use denatured alcohol for the final wipe down. The theory is that acetone leaves a slight film. I have used both and have had good results with both, but for problem parts try alcohol and see if it helps.

    You may have to repeat the torch method several times until oil stops weeping out from the threads.

    With rust bluing ANY contamination will cause problems. Oil on your carding wheel, your steel wool, your gloves, the wire you use to suspend your parts, ANY oil will cause problems. You need to be clinical with your cleanliness.
    Last edited by John 242; 12-31-2017 at 08:12 PM.
    John T.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    LAGS, thank you. I have a de Haas Chicopee I've been making and if I ever get it done, an olde fashioned brown finish might be just the ticket.
    Missing the target is not the worst thing you can do.
    Not taking the shot is.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Walkingwolf's Avatar
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    As probably already said, paint thinner leaves a residue.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    The Mark Lee works fine for me. If you oil the metal, it will turn dark and the spots may disappear.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    @ Hannibal
    If you have no yet finished your rifle, then find some steel or an old barrel and try doing the Rust Brown Finish on that first.
    You don't want to wait till your rifle is done, then try a new to you process and be disappointed.
    The barrel or steel may be sitting for days rusting.
    So that can happen while you are still working on the rifle.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    8. Only use the cotton swab once, do not re dip it in the solution. Dip, apply a light coat of solution, throw the swab in the trash, grab another new one.
    For swabs - use cotton balls!
    Regards
    John

  19. #39
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGS View Post
    @ Hannibal
    If you have no yet finished your rifle, then find some steel or an old barrel and try doing the Rust Brown Finish on that first.
    You don't want to wait till your rifle is done, then try a new to you process and be disappointed.
    The barrel or steel may be sitting for days rusting.
    So that can happen while you are still working on the rifle.
    An excellent suggestion! Thank you.
    Missing the target is not the worst thing you can do.
    Not taking the shot is.

  20. #40
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by John 242 View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, that barrel is screwed into the receiver. At least that's what it looks like to me. What looks to be the cylinder of the barrel shows obvious signs of contamination, likely weeping out from the threads.

    For rust bluing, the most trouble free method is to remove the barrel from the receiver. If that's not possible, you need to de-grease the heck out of where the barrel screws into the receiver and any other place you parts you couldn't remove. If you don't, you'll get spotting. The same holds true for hinge pins or any other parts with metal to metal contact. These areas trap oil and cause headaches when rust bluing.

    It is very difficult to get all of the oil out of the threads with the barrel installed. When converting your red rust to black, the heat from the boiling water causes the oils to weep out of the threads, contaminating your part and possibly the water as well.
    I would consider dumping your tank and scrubbing it with Dawn dish soap, rinse it thoroughly with distilled water. Let it dry and spray it down with denatured alcohol.

    The best product I've used to remove contamination is Dulite 45 caustic cleaner. Caustic cleaners work very well and are worth the investment if you plan on doing more than one gun; however, they do require the investment of a tank, burner, thermometer, space for the set up, etc. I use a tank of cleaner to clean my steel wool as well as the gun parts I'm working on.
    http://www.du-lite.com/dulite_cleaning_compounds.html

    Another option is to gently heat where the barrel screws into the receiver with a propane torch. The key word is GENTLY! You want to burn out the oil that's in the threads, not change the heat treat of the steal. Heat causes the oil to weep out, or burn up. This also works for hinge pins on shotguns that always hold contamination and cause spotting. Again, don't overheat the steel. You want to burn the oil out, not heat the metal to the point that you alter heat treat.

    After trying to burn out that oil, you'll need to degrease again. If you don't have caustic cleaner, then acetone works well, but I was taught to use denatured alcohol for the final wipe down. The theory is that acetone leaves a slight film. I have used both and have had good results with both, but for problem parts try alcohol and see if it helps.

    You may have to repeat the torch method several times until oil stops weeping out from the threads.

    With rust bluing ANY contamination will cause problems. Oil on your carding wheel, your steel wool, your gloves, the wire you use to suspend your parts, ANY oil will cause problems. You need to be clinical with your cleanliness.
    You are correct. It is a barreled action. So your point about oil in the threads is a good one. The previous projects have been shotguns so I have been able to do the receiver and barrel separately which is maybe why I didn't have as many problems. I would prefer to remove the barrel but since I have not done this before on a rifle, and do not have an action wrench (yet), I didn't want to get into more than I could chew, with sight alignment and head spacing issues and whatnot. I will be extra careful about degreasing and maybe try your heating idea before the next attempt.
    JW

    "Be Thankful We're Not Getting All The Government Were Paying For" - Will Rogers
    "If a man can't piss in his own front yard, he's living to close to town." - Edward Abbey via Tom Russell

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