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Thread: First for me 454613 bugs .

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    First for me 454613 bugs .

    I have run 4-5 runs with this new to me but pre-owned mould , it seems to be just plain fickle .
    I washed it in Dawn , carb cleaner and finally brake clean . It continues to act like it has a dirty place uniquely placed on the Minnie style scrapper bands but only on one side . More tin helped but not for long . I ran the vent lines on both blocks and fussed with the sprue plate . I don't know how much difference that makes in a nose pour mould .

    Being a ladle guy with a brand new RCBS ladle I resorted to pressure pouring . I still had an occasional fail to fill out but with whiskers . Very frustrating .
    250 pours today with a full ladle that will carry a little over 1600 grains per dip pressure pouring the last 150 , it seems to be cleaning up . I can't figure what might have been gummed up in the bands .

    This is the only mould I've used that needed to be pressure poured .
    At this point pressure pouring seems to be a cure for the fill out but it would be nice to know why .

    I've poured it with 50/50 WW-1/20 , 1-40 and straight lead . With 1/25 to 50% rejects . Yes the pin is hot . No there isn't any oil or sprue/pin lube in it .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
    Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
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    I don’t have the 454613 in my references. It it a new design?

    Sometimes you have to just live with a mould for a while until it starts working. Even with easy moulds, I leave them open to cool so the maximum amount of oxidation (fire bluing) occurs in the cavities. The bluer they are, the better they seem to cast.

    Sometimes, the cavity burrs the vent lines and I have to open them with a safe-edge triangular Swiss file. My venting jobs are never pretty, so I only try that expedient when the mould has announced its otherwise total uselessness.

    There does seem to be a rule of thumb that the sexier the cavities, the quirkier the casting requirements. This doesn’t always happen, of course, but it happens often enough so I’m always braced for it. Moulds with a lot of cool-looking square grooves seem to be particular offenders.

    I have a .32-40 mould that didn’t fill out until I fitted it with a thick sprue plate. Some moulds only cast well when the lead alloy is fluxed regularly. Others are balky at certain lead temperatures. I have a few custom moulds that definitely don’t like scrap alloys. They lead up at the vent lines and smear over the tops and on the sprue plate undersides at any temperatures at which they fully fill out. Lead or lead/tin only for these prima-donnas.

    I’ve smoked and sprayed moulds that are balky, with good results. I spray others with chlorinated brake or electronics cleaner if they seem oily or dirty, even during casting sessions, outdoors, of course. If any “phosgene” is given off as the solvents evaporate, it hasn’t killed me yet, but, as my high-school chemistry teacher instructed, there is no rule that I have to have my face close to the action, either. I haven’t tried Kroil in moulds mainly since it seems counter-intuitive. However, a Q-Tip with a trace of Bullplate Lube is right there with the screwdrivers, Allen wrenches, brass wire brush, candle and lighter as an essential adjustment tool during casting sessions. I anoint any part of the mould except the cavities with this stuff, if I see lead anywhere else.

    For hollow base or hollow point pin moulds, I pour without the pin until the lead comes out the bottom. I then insert the pin and cast a few rejects with the assembly. When I don’t see holes or off-center pits at the cavity bottoms, I start casting for real, pulling the pin, cutting the sprue, inserting the pin again as soon as possible, and pouring again after a slight interval, maybe a count of five. This reheats the pin to the mould temperature and allows full fillout again.

    When I was growing up, jet planes always had that prong thingie sticking out of the fuselage nose. I’ve often wondered whether the castings done without the hollow point pin would have the same supersonic panache, but I haven’t tried to shoot any yet.

    I’ve messed with a hot plate, and find it more trouble than it’s worth. I’ve blued pins and bases with a propane torch, but don’t use the torch while casting. I sometimes dip a mould (with casting inside) into the melt, but realize this is not practical with a base or HP pin.

    Hopefully, something in this dissertation might help you. Each cranky mould seems to be a law unto itself, at least at the beginning. I often start casting with a mould, view the dismal results, and then think to myself, “Oh, yeah, it’s this one,” and adjust conditions accordingly.
    Last edited by Bent Ramrod; 12-31-2017 at 07:16 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Harter66,

    How many cavities? What's the sprue hole diameter?

    Best regards,

    CJR

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    This is I think probably a fairly old but little used mould . I had a recent go with a brand new brass mould .......yeah well high desert stuff just doesn't rust or patina for beans here .

    I recently had a brand new Lyman mould that was actually easier to get running than the NOEs . As such I hadn't considered heat blueing as a factor in this mould ..... Thoughts to think . The pin shows patina typical of 30 yr in the desert or a winter in the south oil rubbed .

    The nose is .254 and the sprue hole is .156 .
    Gross weight 285 gr +-1.6 , close enough for intended use .

    Attachment 210777
    It's more blued than this now .
    Attachment 210779
    As seen this is a Minnie style HB and is not the called 255 gr 45 Colts BP RNFP referenced to the mould number . It casts at .455 with 1-40 and .5437 in 50/50 WW-1/20 . About 2 gr difference . I have a 45 cal ML that may be the cats pajamas for this . In the meantime it's fun papered up for a Trapdoor with Unique for about 975 fps .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
    Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Harter66,

    In my view, a 0.156"D. sprue hole is too small for your bullet diameter. Years ago, the NRA did studies on the importance of sprue hole diameters to bullet quality and concluded that the sprue hole diameter should be half the size of the bullet diameter, i.e. 0.150"D for a 30 caliber bullet, etc. See the NRA Cast Bullet Manual. The molten metal mass must enter the cavity quickly or cooling occurs at a small sprue hole diameter (high Reynolds Number/turbulence caused by high velocity through small diameter sprue) tends to splash the cooled metal inside the cavity and create air voids/poor fillout. When the sprue hole diameters are correctly enlarged , as stated, the molten metal velocity entering slows(i.e. lower Reynolds Number and less metal turbulence) but more metal mass enters the cavity for better filling based on the "Mass Continuity Equation". The band-aid fix is to increase the molten temperature superheat (i.e. the additional temperature above molten temperature) to increase the fluidity of the molten metal. But the cooling still exists at the small diameter sprue hole and that causes "macrosegregation" in the bullet metal (i.e. density variation throughout the bullet which degrades accuracy by causing bullet imbalance.)

    What I've cited here is just standard casting technology/principles that are used in the casting industry and applied to casting bullets. Likewise if you're using Marvelux flux, which loses tin through oxidation, try using plain sawdust for a flux.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    The nose flat dia is barely over half the bullet dia ...... I can't imagine a long run of cutting .225 + sprues on a 6 hole Lee .

    I'll see if I can scrounge up a replacement plate and open it up some .

    That would tend to explain the tendency toward wanting to run hotter but slower also , and the tin rich alloys pouring easier .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
    Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Harter66,

    I'd start at 0.218"D sprue hole and slowly work upwards. See NRA Cast Bullet Manual Supplement No.1, pg. 14.

    Best regards,

    CJR

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check