Load testing/Ladder testing in Cold Weather?

[chutesnreloads]

Based on my arctic experience I really don't expect to see you testing in temps cold enough to break any of your "polymer" gun parts.All this testing will take some time.Can just see recording the data as well as fumbling loading cartridges in extreme cold with or without your mittens on.Will there be any attempt at recording group sizes also or just testing for pressure/velocity?If you pursue this you,sir,are a lot more stubborn and hard headed than I am not to mention a LOT tougher.Good luck

[upnorthwis]

It makes me want to ask if you remember if the ammo you tested/used was at the same temp as the ambient air in the 90F? Was the ammo used in the 20F at ambient air temp as well? Do you think that barrel heat from shooting may have had any impact on performance in either case?

They were tested and loaded when the ambient was 90. I don't think barrel heat was a factor because it took time to readjust the powder measure and load the next rounds for testing. In the 20 degree match there is considerable time between shooting. I load the competition rounds to be as light as possible, being the "gamer" that I am.

[JBinMN]

It is true that some powders are susceptible to detonation due to reduced loads. I don't have experience with that. I think a search for that might turn up some info.
There are plenty of powders out there that are known to work fine with reduced loads. Those would be a good place to start.
That is why people were asking for details about what you had to work with, so they could make recommendations about what might be best out of what you already had.

There will be issues that relate to some powders but not all.
As in lots of things reloading, the particular combination may work differently than a general application. You can't make many general statements about reloading combinations that apply in all circumstances. So much depends on how your specific weapon reacts to the components used.

I understand. As I said, I was trying to avoid adding too much info & then complicate things by doing it.

Simply put as best & briefly as I can.
If folks want specifics, I would prefer to answer what specifics folks might need to know , rather than just post up a list of handguns & rifles, a list of powders, a list of primers and other component such as boolits/bullets, etc.. & then sort thru all sorts of combinations all at once. I was trying to keep it general and as simple as possible.

I have mentioned how many handguns & rifles that I use metallic cartridges in, & approx. how many different powders I have currently to work with, as well as that I am currently working on Red Dot, 700X & Clays as the three powders in particular at this time for "reduced loads" in the handguns.

I did not want folks to limit themselves to just those 3 powders if they had insight on other powders & similar information in regard to the subject. All info is welcome as far as I am concerned as it lends perspective to the "whole picture" as it has been put before.

I think any techniques, data and/or resources that could be applied to any powder( or combinations of components) would help provide insight on cold weather testing of those powders( & components).

As well as info on how "plastic" parts perform, and such..

I appreciate your help in trying to get more info & I am open to trying what might work to get folks to help out.

[JBinMN]

Based on my arctic experience I really don't expect to see you testing in temps cold enough to break any of your "polymer" gun parts.All this testing will take some time.Can just see recording the data as well as fumbling loading cartridges in extreme cold with or without your mittens on.Will there be any attempt at recording group sizes also or just testing for pressure/velocity?If you pursue this you,sir,are a lot more stubborn and hard headed than I am not to mention a LOT tougher.Good luck

As far as temp extremes, I can attest that MN has its' extremes for both lows & highs. But I agree, when it gets to a certain point of cold or hot, I prefer to find something else to do than shiver or sweat a lot outdoors now a days.


As far as doing the testing & time. Yes, I know it can & that is why I plan to do just a few powders & then combinations at a time to try to keep things simple & not overwhelming.


Recording the data is fairly simple since the Caldwell Ballistic Chrony I have lets me hook to my cellphone & record the data as well as being able to "do the math" & then send it to my computer or others folks I choose to share it. It records velocity, Sd, MV, etc.. Group sizes would have to be with photo/video if I were to share them. To my thinking...The hard part is going to be keeping things warm enough to work with the electronics & not changing the temps from cold to warm to cold to try to prevent much condensation, as well as if the equipt will perform out in the cold. I know the phone does, but not yet about the chrony. Dealing with loading & such with the firearms, I have practice/experience there & do not expect many issues.

Ammo temp will be another part of the experiment(s) if I am going to go "whole hog" about it. testing ladders in which the ammo is acclimatized to the ambient air as well as at a set temp of my choosing such as 50F, kept in a warm vehicle or the like. Barrel temp can be somewhat controlled by using time & ambient( cold) air to keep that from being a factor.

I do not have the means to test for pressure, ( and that is a concern as well) but I do know how to recognise what "visible" overpressure signs that might happen. It would take someone who has that sort of equipt. to be able to test in that regard. I am just testing these , mainly reduced loads, and having that info about "temp. sensitivity" is what I thought I would ask about to prevent anything getting an over pressure due to the powder used.

Lastly, yes I am a stubborn/hard headed feller & some have called me "tough" on more than one occasion. LOL I guess it is just on how we look at things though, isn't it.
LOL


Thanks for posting!

[JBinMN]

They were tested and loaded when the ambient was 90. I don't think barrel heat was a factor because it took time to readjust the powder measure and load the next rounds for testing. In the 20 degree match there is considerable time between shooting. I load the competition rounds to be as light as possible, being the "gamer" that I am.

Thanks for filling in the details & answering questions!


I am aware that barrel temps, as well as ambient air, altitude, etc., can have an effect on quite a few factors in our "sport" or "craft" to include reloading & casting & even particularly so for BR shooter & other certain competitive doins. That is why I asked about it. Even though I am not what folks call a "competitive" shooter, I imagined there would be some time delay with the colder temps as a factor & maybe even the other way around in the hotter temps. All supposition though, until ya cleared it up for your particular situations.


Thanks again!

[OS OK]

This post could be helpful in a couple of ways...for one, getting a list going of powders that we are warned not to go light with...powders we shouldn't load below minimum's in the books...

* 296
* H110

I haven't seen the printed warnings on either of these but they have come up many times in posts...

[Shiloh]

-30˚ wind chill here.

Shiloh

Thanks for the help out so far!


BTW, It was -41F with wind chill here yesterday morning at around 0800/ 8 AM. Balmy, eh?


Anyway, Most of my handguns are steel, but the one I was most concerned about with the "polymer", "synthetic"....Well, "Plastic parts" is the missus Ruger LCR 357. It has that body that I would be concerned about cracking, or something similar, like what MUSTANG mentioned about the encrypted phone. The only other firearm I have that is mostly "plastic" is a HiPoint .380. Cheap enough though & with its warranty to have no issue with getting it fixed if it did break. Since the other handguns are all steel except for grips, IIRC, they should not be an issue for cold weather for the most part.

As far as boolit lube, I use 45/45/10 on some & pan lube with a homemade lube mix of Johnsons pastewax, paraffin from candles, vaseline & some other stuff.
I will keep an eye on how they work out.

For firearm lube, I have a few different oils/lubes I use. Hoppes gun oil sometimes, Rem. spray lube sometimes, among other lubes. All have been tested in colder weather than what we are now experiencing (down to -25 or more), so I am not too worried about them. Light coat is fine. BTW, I have also used powdered graphite a couple of times, in certain "wear" places, but not often.

As far as powders... I think I am going to email or call the makers of the powders I use & ask them directly about the temperature sensitivity of the ones I currently have & use. I would appreciate "personal experiences" though, and am hoping that some folks may post what they themselves have used as well. That was a big part of why I posted the topic. For the input of the vast experience of the members here. As some folks say, "the more the merrier.".


I have been thinking about some other things in regard to temps & its' effects on powders...

The way I understand it, as Tazman mentioned, that loads worked up in colder temps may have issues with overpressure in higher temps. Now, when I think on that , I can understand expansion & contraction of materials due to cold thru warm/hot temps, but that brings me to ponder on a couple things...

If ya have 3.0 gr. of "Powder X" ( "X" being any powder) in a case & it is within the "specs" for a safe load in a cartridge per a load manual. how is it that there is a difference in that round regardless of when/where it was "loaded" & the temp where it is eventually fired? 3.0gr. is 3.0 grains. If it was loaded , either by a reloader or a factory & the temp was 68F inside the home, shop, or factory, why should it make a difference when it is 10F or 100F? What changed in the chemical makeup of that powder over the range of temps? If it were a "volume" expansion or contraction due to temps, would that not have been noticed & mentioned before by someone?

Additionally, why would it matter if the powder was loaded in 10F and fired in 100F or vice versa, if the powder amount of 3.0gr. remains the same? I do not recall seeing in a manual that one needs to adjust the powder amount due to temp ranges & sensitivity... Has anyone else read about it in one of their manuals? Why is there no "notice","caution" or"warning" on boxes of ammo stating that there is could be a difference in the pressures of the rounds inside the box if they are fired at any temp extreme? Maybe it really just doesn't matter all that much???

I am wondering if it just isn't that big of an overpressure issue anymore. Perhaps modern powders have been chemically altered to not cause enough difference in pressure/velocity/etc. for it to make a difference like it did in the past when cordite was used more & amm loaded in colder climes then sent to warmer climes had issues with case expansion after firing & the difficulty with case extraction that followed...

Another thing I have pondered is just how much effect does ambient temp have on the temp of the encapsulated powder. If one takes some rounds from their house loaded at 68F & then goes outside where it is 10F, gets in the vehicle (warmed & kept at 50F or so ( whatever temp you can get) & drives to a range 45 minutes away in the heated vehicle & then sets the ammo on the bench, the ammo is likely at a temp relatively close to what it was when loaded before it gets fired if the ammo is not exposed to the cold for an extended period of time. ( You could say the same thing towards the opposite and using AC when going to a hot place to shoot when it is 100F)
What effect would that be on the ammo loaded at 68F?
What about ammo loaded at 68F & then left in the vehicle to freeze or get cooked and not shot until later?
What about ammo loaded at 40F & left in a shed until it is 85F or vice versa before it is shot?

Really... Is this whole subject just a moot point because the temps really don't have that much effect on the loads listed in the manuals?

Long post, but I am trying to figure this stuff out. Maybe most folks have not thought about it because they go to an indoor range, maybe live in a climate where this is not any issue, maybe never even pondered on it, or maybe just did not care...

If it is an issue, then shouldn't everyone be aware of it? & if it is not an issue, then as "common knowledge" why have I not seen more info about it before now. ( When searching the internet, I still am getting a good bit of "noise" when I go look for answers in a search engine. "Noise", meaning I am not finding a lot of info from "reliable sources" like manufacturers & firearms makers as well as reloaders so far. Seems like not too many folks even care about it, IDK, but I sure would like to know.)

Well anyway, I am trying to learn more & so I am gonna keep asking questions. LOL Hopefully I will find the answers.


Thanks again for the replies! & I hope there may be some more folks interested enough to share or ask even more questions so this might get figured out.

[upnorthwis]

Wind chill only effects animal tissue. So if you leave a bullet out in -20 degrees in a 50 mph wind, it's still only going to be -20. Although your trigger finger will get really cold.

[HangFireW8]

.44 mag.,
Your logic is flawed. Mass is not a unit of weight. Weight is a measure of gravitational attraction. A 10 lb. sledge weights 10 lbs. on earth. In outer space it's weight is ZERO but it still has 10 lbs. of mass. A kilogram was originally defined as one cubic centimeter of water. 1000 kilograms of water is a liter.

So... a Liter, which is a little larger than a quart, weighs 1000 kilograms, or 2204.62 pounds?

That's some HEAVY water!

[44MAG#1]

So... a Liter, which is a little larger than a quart, weighs 1000 kilograms, or 2204.62 pounds?

That's some HEAVY water!

This is where someone can know something and understanding what they know is two different things.

[GEOMETRIC]

Sorry, I make no attempt to be politically correct or for that matter, 100% technically correct. If you don't get it, go get yourself a good physics book or research it on the web. A gram was originally defined as the weight of 1 cubic centimeter of water at standard state. It has since been more precisely defined. Most any grammar school kid knows 1000 milliliters is a liter & a milliliter weighs a gram so a liter weighs a kilogram. If I miss stated that, please accept my apology for the typo. If a milliliter(of water) weighs a gram, a liter weighs 1000 grams or a kilogram. Looking back, I see I am in error as I said a liter weighs1000 kilograms & I should have said a kilogram. I also said a gram is 1 cubic centimeter of water. You do the math. I do sometimes miss state things & I do sometimes make mistakes but if anybody here does not know about that which he speaks, it is not me.
I also see that someone here needs to take a class in English grammar.

[44MAG#1]

Well you are chomping at the bit to tell who it is so go ahead

[GEOMETRIC]

Duh, that's obvious & apparent. End of discussion.

[OS OK]

I just have one question, if you young Bucks don't mind..."Why are you two having a 'peeing contest' right here in the middle of JB's thread? You both are making yourselves look like a couple of goofs...why not take this to PM and have at it there?"
I'll tell ya fellas...the reasons that members have stopped posting interesting threads with lots of pictures and hard evidence for you all to peruse is because you fellas deliberately sidetrack the threads with your 'peeing contest'...your not sticking to the subject is going to cost only you in the long run.

c h a r l i e

[HangFireW8]

Charlie,

Not sure if I'm one of your Young bucks. But I have found that data and reasoned arguments are useless around here. If the heavies are presenting their cases I just get ignored. If the usual pissants are pissing, someone assumes I am taking sides and I get attacked. Or just ignored.

So now I do two things. Explain reloading truths only to newbies ( which the Heavies will come along shortly, ignore what I say, and restate what I say). Or, poke fun at the pissants by pointing out their mistakes. Either way it's like I barely exist. But hey I'm just a nobody here.

[azrednek]

I wonder if Elmer Keith ever worried about this?

Why would he?? If Elmer blew up his gun the manufactures would be knocking on his door, giving him new in hopes he'd write about it.

[JBinMN]

I just have one question, if you young Bucks don't mind..."Why are you two having a 'peeing contest' right here in the middle of JB's thread? You both are making yourselves look like a couple of goofs...why not take this to PM and have at it there?"
I'll tell ya fellas...the reasons that members have stopped posting interesting threads with lots of pictures and hard evidence for you all to peruse is because you fellas deliberately sidetrack the threads with your 'peeing contest'...your not sticking to the subject is going to cost only you in the long run.

c h a r l i e

Charlie,

Not sure if I'm one of your Young bucks. But I have found that data and reasoned arguments are useless around here. If the heavies are presenting their cases I just get ignored. If the usual pissants are pissing, someone assumes I am taking sides and I get attacked. Or just ignored.

So now I do two things. Explain reloading truths only to newbies ( which the Heavies will come along shortly, ignore what I say, and restate what I say). Or, poke fun at the pissants by pointing out their mistakes. Either way it's like I barely exist. But hey I'm just a nobody here.

Fellas...

The topic has already been "compromised" with "extraneous BS".

I am gonna do what I planned to do & just because some folks don't see things the same way as I do, then so be it. I am gonna get as much info as I can get, then weed the "chaff out of the wheat" as is the saying, or something like that..

The only bad thing is... The ones who have the best info will not not post & add their experience or data, because some folks had to "muddy the water" , as they say... They don't want to even get in here to keep out of the BS...

Charlie,
Thanks for stepping up to the plate to try to keep the topic on track.


HangfireW8,

I understand Exactly what you are talking about & feel the same way...

Gonna be a bit more, "prudent" on what I offer... Don't need the hassle either...

Life is too short...


-----------------------------------

Just because I have not been a member here for a long time , does not mean I am some ignorant fool.

I plan to "do what I plan to do", regardless of those who "detract" from the doins..

I see it that a person can either "Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!", & if folks don't want to be a part... then the Hell with them.

Ya'll take it easy now. Don't get uptight. I am not. Life is too short for me. I will do what I am gonna do.

If ya want to help, fine. IF not, see ya around the block..

Better to be known as helping out than to be known as a Block to more knowledge..

Think on that.
please...



P.S. - As far as I am concerned, this topic is gonna just sit here. Don't see alot of folks wanting to be involved for the knowledge that could be worth knowing...
I do not plan to post again unless I have pertinent info to share about the subject, or someone asks me something in particular...

I will just do my own testing.

G'Luck to ya'll!

[tazman]

I, for one, would be interested in your results. More data is always a good thing.

[toallmy]

I am interested as well , possibly a difference in ball powder , flake , or stick powder in big temperature swings . I have been climbing a ladder load for one particular rifle that has reached the top of the book load with a new to me powder , but I'm not going to bulk load this round until I get to try it out in the summer heat .

[GEOMETRIC]

One of my favorite quotes, "difference of opinion is healthy as long as it is based on knowledge, fact & sound judgement & not hard headed stupidity". Sorry, I didn't mean to start a riff. All I was trying to do is explain the difference between weight & mass & apparently that was perceived as an attack. What I said was not my opinion, it's simply fact but don't take my word for it, do your own research if you are interested. One thing is for sure, I shouldn't have said anything. I didn't mean for this to detract from the thread. I was just trying to educate the peanut gallery. Since nobody is listening to my statements & nobody cares, this conversation, if you can call it that, is not & never was constructive. I thought we could discuss things objectively but I was wrong. I will say no more.