Load testing/Ladder testing in Cold Weather?

[JBinMN]

I have been testing new loads with different powders & boolits all this year, up until about a couple weeks ago. The last testing was done back when it was hovering around the 32F freezing point. I am hesitant on doing any more testing below that temp range due to a couple of reasons.

One is that I do not shoot outdoors as much during weather below 32F unless I am hunting. I have been hunting for about 45 years or so & have done so in mostly cold places, but shooting for fun I have usually limited myself to 32F plus temps. So, I have not had much need to do more than test for the firearms I use for hunting & not so much for "fun" firearms to shoot. I have experience in testing factory loads mostly for hunting, & not experienced as well in the effects cold can have on powders of different types & makers for other types of loads & ammo.

Another reason I have not been shooting for fun is that I do not have an inside range to shoot near me. ( Closest I know of is 50+ miles away, one way) This year we have relatively colder temps for this time of year and little snow cover where I live. The temps right now are highs of -5F & lows down to about -16 to -20F.. Shooting for "fun" means that any loads I have tested in higher temps "may" not be as good as when they were tested. I am tempted to do some ladder testing in these colder temps, but am curious as to what others think about it, and wonder what others may have to say to help out.

I know that some powders are "temperature sensitive", and as well & another concern I have is some of the firearms ( mostly handguns) I shoot for "fun", have what I call "plastic parts" ( "synthetic", I believe is the correct term) & I am concerned if they are up to the task in cold weather. Hate to break something in a firearm that is not up to the task when it is colder out. Another concern is dissimilar metal expansion & contraction & whether or not that was taken into consideration by the manufacturers when designing the firearms I shoot.

I have some loads I want to ladder test, but am somewhat hesitant, since I do not want to create any issues that I could prevent, or reduce the effect of them happening, were I to wait until it gets warmer. ( think dangerous conditions or costly breakage issues.) That is where the input from you folks will help out , IMO.

I am very curious to see if the same loads in cold weather compare well with those tested at warmer temps, just for the experience & load data for my own records.

Does anyone here feel like sharing some of their experiences in Cold Weather load testing & such?

I would appreciate anyones input on what might be things to be concerned about & to look for, as well as any techniques I may have not considered that are applicable to cold weather, where in warmer temps they would not be of much concern...

Thanks if you can help out!


[ Note- I am not sure that I put this topic in the right forum. I hope so anyway.]

[CIC]

I have nothing to add except burrrrrrrr! -5 for the high! That makes Southern Indiana seem like the tropics. Stay warm.

[runfiverun]

if a gun won't shoot in the cold it ain't very useful.

pay attention to a few things while your out there, this would be a very good learning moment.
how good is the lube you use on your pistols?
how good is your boolit lube?
is your powder temp sensitive?
they make 0w-30 motor oil for a reason.

[tazman]

I have tested my rifles in cold weather and found the loads they like cold were different than the ones they liked hot. Sometimes the differences were significant. It all depends on your individual rifle.
Test it and find out.
Don't expect loads you develop in cold weather to work in hot weather. In hot weather, they may be over pressure. I tried that once and blew the primers out of a couple of cases because the powder proved to be temperature sensitive. Didn't hurt the rifle but ruined the cases.

[MUSTANG]

From a "Major Problem" area, it would be potential higher pressures taking a near max load tested for a "Cold Weather Load", and using it in the higher temps of Summer.

Another potential "Oddity" that hit me in this discussion is: What happens to Powder Coated/HiTek coated boolits in extreme Cold Weather? Years ago I discovered at the Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Center and Deployments in Norway that for temps at the Sub Zero (Farenheit) levels it would cause STU-III keys to shatter if they were exposed to shock such as being dropped on a hard surface. (A STU-III is a a Telephone with built in High Level encryption, there is a Black "Plastic" key with embedded microcircuits to enable the Secure Telephone to use the encryption). Just wonder what happens to the Polymers in a PC'd Boolit at -10, -20, or even -72 (Coldest Temp I have ever been in for a "Field Environment".?

[azrednek]

Friend of mine learned about hot temperatures the hard way. We wound up cracking the slide on his Nazi marked WW2 P-38. Him and I split a deal on surplus 9MM. The ammo was either Swedish or Swiss surplus, can't remember which. We shot up plenty of it in cooler temps with no problems. On a hot, near 110 degree day my shootng bud just had to shoot his new toy. About the 4th or 5th shot the slide cracked. We shot up the remainder in a Blackhawk's 9 MM cylinder.

Can't say for certain and just speculation on my part. The ammo was made for colder climates and likely loaded hot for use in sub machine guns.

[JBinMN]

Thanks for the help out so far!


BTW, It was -41F with wind chill here yesterday morning at around 0800/ 8 AM. Balmy, eh?


Anyway, Most of my handguns are steel, but the one I was most concerned about with the "polymer", "synthetic"....Well, "Plastic parts" is the missus Ruger LCR 357. It has that body that I would be concerned about cracking, or something similar, like what MUSTANG mentioned about the encrypted phone. The only other firearm I have that is mostly "plastic" is a HiPoint .380. Cheap enough though & with its warranty to have no issue with getting it fixed if it did break. Since the other handguns are all steel except for grips, IIRC, they should not be an issue for cold weather for the most part.

As far as boolit lube, I use 45/45/10 on some & pan lube with a homemade lube mix of Johnsons pastewax, paraffin from candles, vaseline & some other stuff.
I will keep an eye on how they work out.

For firearm lube, I have a few different oils/lubes I use. Hoppes gun oil sometimes, Rem. spray lube sometimes, among other lubes. All have been tested in colder weather than what we are now experiencing (down to -25 or more), so I am not too worried about them. Light coat is fine. BTW, I have also used powdered graphite a couple of times, in certain "wear" places, but not often.

As far as powders... I think I am going to email or call the makers of the powders I use & ask them directly about the temperature sensitivity of the ones I currently have & use. I would appreciate "personal experiences" though, and am hoping that some folks may post what they themselves have used as well. That was a big part of why I posted the topic. For the input of the vast experience of the members here. As some folks say, "the more the merrier.".


I have been thinking about some other things in regard to temps & its' effects on powders...

The way I understand it, as Tazman mentioned, that loads worked up in colder temps may have issues with overpressure in higher temps. Now, when I think on that , I can understand expansion & contraction of materials due to cold thru warm/hot temps, but that brings me to ponder on a couple things...

If ya have 3.0 gr. of "Powder X" ( "X" being any powder) in a case & it is within the "specs" for a safe load in a cartridge per a load manual. how is it that there is a difference in that round regardless of when/where it was "loaded" & the temp where it is eventually fired? 3.0gr. is 3.0 grains. If it was loaded , either by a reloader or a factory & the temp was 68F inside the home, shop, or factory, why should it make a difference when it is 10F or 100F? What changed in the chemical makeup of that powder over the range of temps? If it were a "volume" expansion or contraction due to temps, would that not have been noticed & mentioned before by someone?

Additionally, why would it matter if the powder was loaded in 10F and fired in 100F or vice versa, if the powder amount of 3.0gr. remains the same? I do not recall seeing in a manual that one needs to adjust the powder amount due to temp ranges & sensitivity... Has anyone else read about it in one of their manuals? Why is there no "notice","caution" or"warning" on boxes of ammo stating that there is could be a difference in the pressures of the rounds inside the box if they are fired at any temp extreme? Maybe it really just doesn't matter all that much???

I am wondering if it just isn't that big of an overpressure issue anymore. Perhaps modern powders have been chemically altered to not cause enough difference in pressure/velocity/etc. for it to make a difference like it did in the past when cordite was used more & amm loaded in colder climes then sent to warmer climes had issues with case expansion after firing & the difficulty with case extraction that followed...

Another thing I have pondered is just how much effect does ambient temp have on the temp of the encapsulated powder. If one takes some rounds from their house loaded at 68F & then goes outside where it is 10F, gets in the vehicle (warmed & kept at 50F or so ( whatever temp you can get) & drives to a range 45 minutes away in the heated vehicle & then sets the ammo on the bench, the ammo is likely at a temp relatively close to what it was when loaded before it gets fired if the ammo is not exposed to the cold for an extended period of time. ( You could say the same thing towards the opposite and using AC when going to a hot place to shoot when it is 100F)
What effect would that be on the ammo loaded at 68F?
What about ammo loaded at 68F & then left in the vehicle to freeze or get cooked and not shot until later?
What about ammo loaded at 40F & left in a shed until it is 85F or vice versa before it is shot?

Really... Is this whole subject just a moot point because the temps really don't have that much effect on the loads listed in the manuals?

Long post, but I am trying to figure this stuff out. Maybe most folks have not thought about it because they go to an indoor range, maybe live in a climate where this is not any issue, maybe never even pondered on it, or maybe just did not care...

If it is an issue, then shouldn't everyone be aware of it? & if it is not an issue, then as "common knowledge" why have I not seen more info about it before now. ( When searching the internet, I still am getting a good bit of "noise" when I go look for answers in a search engine. "Noise", meaning I am not finding a lot of info from "reliable sources" like manufacturers & firearms makers as well as reloaders so far. Seems like not too many folks even care about it, IDK, but I sure would like to know.)

Well anyway, I am trying to learn more & so I am gonna keep asking questions. LOL Hopefully I will find the answers.


Thanks again for the replies! & I hope there may be some more folks interested enough to share or ask even more questions so this might get figured out.

[44MAG#1]

I wonder if Elmer Keith ever worried about this?

[JBinMN]

I wonder if Elmer Keith ever worried about this?

I am no Elmer Keith, & Neither are you, I reckon... Good question though, if sincere. He would be a good one to ask...

[44MAG#1]

Well give it a thought. He lived in a part of the country that gets as much as thirty below. What about the people that live in Alaska? Are there periods of the coldest part of the year they cannot fire their guns and loads because of the temp?
It would be nice if someone from maybe around Anchorage would post as let us know if there are times of the year guns and ammo can't be fired because of the low temperature. I have seen photos of hunters in Alaskan with ice in their beards while hunting with guns.
Could this be overthinking things. If plastic guns somehow automatically disassembled in some low temperature that would be a good time for the crooks and thugs to run rampant.
I don't know. Maybe some common sense would be in order here.

[JBinMN]

Maybe it is not worth any concern. Without asking how would I know? You don't seem to know either it seems...

As far as temp extremes & being out in it...Living in Minnesota for a lot of years lends itself to being out in that sort of weather. I myself have hunted in temps below -25F, not counting wind chills, frosted beard & all. Muzzleloader, as well as shotgun & rifle. But... I have not tested loads with small "plastic" parts on firearms like handguns, nor have I ever noticed any issues with ammo used or powders in ammo in factory rounds. As far as the muzzleloader, the muzzle loader I used was an inline TC Omega using pryrodex pellets & a 209 primer & not a "traditional", but the experience of doing it is the same. That Omega has a synthetic( plastic) stock & forearm, but it is not a small part of the firearm, like would be on a handgun. So , I do not count it in regard to the topic here.

So, like I said, I have experience IN the cold & shooting, just not with experimenting with cartridge loads & powders that are reloaded other than factory ones.. Exception being that I have loaded & shot shotgun shells in cold weather as well for deer , waterfowl, upland birds and small game as well, but I am not trying to discuss shotgun shells, just cartridges & particularly handguns although rifles could be a good part as well.

As far as "common sense"... IMO, when one has the chance to ask others about something like I am doing here, I call that using good common sense. Just like calling up the powder makers about their products as well. Gathering as much info as one can get when dealing with things that go Bang seems to be good common sense, but maybe your definition of common sense is different from mine & I think it may be.

If you have a reference book that tells ya how to make up loads & you decide not to look up what you want to know but just go out & do it before some research is done, good for you. I would bet that folks like Elmer Keith ya mentioned, among others like the Col. who wrote up about loads( can't eremember his name) who did not have the internet lke we do, likely talkied to others about what they were doing & gonna do before they just went willy nilly testing things. Seems to me that they would not be around to tell about what they found & would have lost some body partsa if they havd not done some safe practices as well.

So, as far as I am concerned, I am using "common sense" in asking here about what I am wondering about. Just for the sake of using a "reference" no different than asking others with more experience about anything one wants to do, from cooking up a nice roast, how to hunt trukey, what to do when a car won't start in the cold, or anything else that a person might want to know about.

I'd be obliged if ya have some thing to add, other than to question my "common sense", Thanks. Seems to me that is what this forum is all about. Sharing ideas, asking questions & such about reloading & casting.

What do you have to share about the subject, if I might ask? I am curious to know what ya might have to offer. Other than seeming to be dismissing the subject as not worth discussing...

[44MAG#1]

I am adding something. You don't see it for some reason. If there were any real danger to shooting in extremely cold temps we would se a glut of instances in writing or elsewhere about it. Not saying there isn't ANY dangers but enough to really be concerned about. If someone does have a blow up or something else relat d how do we know it was caused by the cold? How about an overload? How about a barrel accidentally plugged by maybe getting accidentally stuck in the snow. How would we even know what actually caused it.
How about the dangers traveling to and from the shooting range, hunting area, etc. etc. and more etc.?
Just like the Glock and cast bullets. How do we know the scare wasn't actually caused by some mistake by the shooter loading his ammo with cast? We don't. People still use cast in Glocks and do an admirable job of it.
Even if someone came in here and said they had a friend that had an uncle that had a friend that has a dad that the cold weather caused his firearm to get damaged by cold weather could we bet the farm on the info?
Certainly not.
There comes a time when one needs to look at the whole picture. Not just a near sighted view.

[JBinMN]

Before I even posted the topic/question(s) I thought about what you have mentioned. Maybe ya did not know, but there were issues with firearms long ago with loads made in the European area that were brought to the tropics & there were issues with the loads & cartridges due to their being loaded & tested in colder climes, but shot in hot ones. I have also read & as mentioned before, by Tazman, as well as my mentioning his post, that loads can cause issue when they go from cooler to hotter temps. My question is the reverse, going from warm to cold instead of cold to warm.

As well, since I do not have a lot of experience with plastic parts on firearms( other than the M16A1 in the military & the muzzleloader I mentioned), I was curious about that part of testing loads in those particular firearms in the cold. So, I thought I would ask here to see if anyone actually had such experience & what they found.
I would not like to ruin a firearm, nor have one break in my hand unexpectedly, due to the shock of recoil breaking the "plastic" parts of any firearm I was shooting. Or, if one were to slip out of my hand & hit the ground as well. ( If you are familiar with the cold temps I live in, you would be aware that lots of plastic parts easily crack or break in cold temps. Tools( handles for example), cheap pot metal/plastic vehicle door handles, wiper arm ends when changing wiper blades, shovel handles, etc.. There are a lot of them I could mention from years of experience...)

I know the military tests firearms for their use in all sorts of temps & I have participated in such testing & training of military items when I was in the Corps.. They do it to see if materials & such can handle extremes. MUSTANG brought a good example of how they discovered one item that could not handle the cold in his post above. I see what I am asking as no different that asking what others may have discovered Before I go out & do it.

So , perhaps you may consider that your view of dismissing this sort of thing as not worth the time, since no one else has ever talked about it, is the "narrow view" & my quest to learn more is looking for the "whole picture" & not the narrow one.


Regardless... Of course it could be just a waste of time, but I sure would feel & look foolish if I did not ask about it before I did it & something bad happened...

Thanks for your concern about it perhaps a waste of time, but I do not feel that way & will continue to learn more if I can. Using past folks who have experimented in doing things others have not done before, perhaps I will be the one to do the tests anyway. .. Be a doggone shame if I discovered something & did not share it... As well as if I did not discover anything & did not share that knowledge either.

Just because something is not widely known, nor is known to happen often, does not mean that it should not be discussed or shared. "Detonation" in a cartridge in a firearm happens sometimes with certain powders in reduced loads , but so far no one has come up with the reason for it that I know of... Sure would be a doggone shame if it was discovered to be from the temperature of the powder in a cold environment. I do not want to be the one to discover that "link".

I am gonna keep asking the questions. If folks don't think it worth discussing so be it. They don't need to post.

I thank ya for trying to keep me from being overly concerned, and perhaps it is a "non issue", but I am a stubborn SOB & one way or the other I will eventually find out. I am just gonna keep asking about "temperature sensitivity" in powders to see if others can help before hand. I might just learn more than I already know. LOL


------------------
ETA >> P.S. - Some of the powders I have been testing like Redt Dot, 700X & Clays are not very large in volume as compared to other powders. I also test for "reduced loads", so that "Detonation" I mentioned "IS" a concern for me. Just thought I would add that info for consideration, if folks did not think about that...

[jsizemore]

Up to 2008 the best powder I found was single base Vhitavouri Oy. I've tried some of the newer powders from other manufacturers. I haven't found any better. Of course I haven't tried them all.

[trapper9260]

I had think about this same thing that the OP is asking and just did not ask because of getting side track on other things to ask or was not thinking about at the time.It will be of intrest what will be said about it.For how cold it getting in northeast Iowa,all I was told is let the fire arms be in the cold for some time to stop the moisture in it like a muzzle loader from getting the powder damp.

[chutesnreloads]

I was stationed at Ft.Wainwright next to Fairbanks Alaska.....we spent a LOT of time out in the sub-zero weather.Mind you I have only experience with either factory ammo or issued ammo.The only shooting issue we ran into was the weapons lubrication freezing up....even the issued "cold weather" stuff...would turn M-16's and M-60's into single shots....we would keep our weapons unlubed on the inside working parts while out in the elements...then clean and oil when we got back to base.As to the plastic parts.....I never saw the plastic parts of same weapons(stocks,grips) break and they sure weren't being handled gently.Would sure like hearing from any the old Charlie Airborne guys

[GEOMETRIC]

The newest powders are being designed to be stable in extreme temperature variations. Extreme high temperature can cause high pressure with some powder. Extreme cold can cause ignition problems but that I believe is more of a problem with shotgun ammo. I would test my ammo if I were going on a hunt in extremely cold or hot conditions. I was trying to figure out why a certain rifle wasn't grouping well. I finally gave up & sold it. My gunsmith couldn't figure it out either. I put the ammo. in the freezer over night & that had no effect on the ammo that I was able to detect.

[GEOMETRIC]

JB, Asking questions is an excellent way to find things out. You learn a lot more listening than flapping your gums. This site is a wealth of information. I would suggest doing some reading but be careful what you believe. There is a lot of BS going around & I have noticed a steady deterioration of the quality of info. on the web. "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions" : H.P. White Laboratories.

[44MAG#1]

Let me ask a question. What are you going to establish your data base on. The one person that said they had a problem? Two people? Three people? A dozen people? How are you going to establish a data base that is solid enough that you can even say that it is worthwhile? How do you know that one, two, three or more of the people that said they had problems are even legitimate in their findings? How can you know it wasn't something they did in error that caused the problem?
We have incidents of years ago people having trouble???? Who are these people? What was determined that caused the anomaly? Do we even know? If we do what was the cause?
How many on here can we trust to be completely accurate on what they say? Do you Know everyone on here personally?
Things like this may be good for conversation but where is a data base on anything even resembling anything that is factual? From people that one can say, they are a fact machine and what they say is beyond reproach in cold weather situations with firearms?

[GEOMETRIC]

.44 mag.,
Your logic is flawed. Mass is not a unit of weight. Weight is a measure of gravitational attraction. A 10 lb. sledge weights 10 lbs. on earth. In outer space it's weight is ZERO but it still has 10 lbs. of mass. A kilogram was originally defined as one cubic centimeter of water. 1000 kilograms of water is a liter.