High velocity rifles and cast boolits

[country gent]

Another route to look into is a Paper Patched bullet. The patch rides the barrel and lead dosnt touch. a softer alloy can be used at better velocities. I believe Col Harrison did some work with 300 win mag and PP bullets at pretty much full velocity in the 60s. I think the was in the rifleman magazine. In the 6.5 it may get you where you need to be, In the 338 it should get you way past where you need to be. A bore dia bullet ( maybe - .001 ) in dia wrapped with 2 wraps of Seth Cole paper ( .0018 thk) will gain .007 in dia. So a .258 bullet wraped with this paper is going to be .265 dia But the lead wont touch the barrel causing problems.

[vzerone]

This is Alliant's load data for RL19 in the 338 Win Mag.

338 Win. Magnum Speer 225 gr SP Winchester 3.3 24 CCI 250 Reloder 19 78 2,944 -
338 Win. Magnum Speer 250 gr SP Winchester 3.3 24 CCI 250 Reloder 19 72 2,664 -
338 Win. Magnum Speer 200 gr SP Winchester 3.3 24 CCI 250 Reloder 19 76 2,806 -

This is all they have for RL22 and just with the 250 grain bullet. That's telling me you should use a faster powder for the lighter bullet, in your case the LEE 338-220 as RL22 needs a heavier bullet to get it burning more efficient and cleaner.


338 Win. Magnum Speer 250 gr SP Winchester 3.3 24 CCI 250 Reloder 22 73 2,653 -

Even the RL19 may be too slow I believe it's around 4831. What powders do you have? You may want to go with a shotgun/pistol powder as the velocity you quoted as needing isn't a lot. If you use a small dose of a lighter fast powder you may want to use a big enough tuff of Dacron that will occupy the space between the top of the powder and base of the bullet. You never want to compress it as a wad.

Those loads with RL19 and RL22 are full house jacketed loads and you surely don't need those.

VZ

[tomme boy]

RL19 will work fine if you have it.

[vzerone]

RL19 will work fine if you have it.

Tomme it's not whether the RL's would work or not he just doesn't need to have a full house load, at least he didn't say he did. He mentioned 1850 fps or there abouts. I'd rather take a little fast powder then reduce a very slow burning powder. RL22 is very slow and like I mentioned RL19 is around 4831. I use a full case of RL22 in the 7.65 Argentine and it's great. I have Gunfreak trying it and he's getting good results.

[runfiverun]

R-19 backed down to about 47.0grs with a 1.5-2.0 gr. Dacron filler would give about 2250-2300 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

R-19 backed down to about 47.0grs with a 1.5-2.0 gr. Dacron filler would give about 2250-2300 fps.

That's why I figured a start load of 38 to 40 gr would get the OP down into the 1800 +/- fps range so he could work up.

[njc110381]

Thanks again chaps. I don't have the powders listed but had a look at the Lapua burn rate chart. I do have H414 (quite a lot of that actually!) and Viht N140. Faster still I have H335 and BLC-2.

I used to use a lot of Hodgdon powder but am thinking ahead. Unless I already have it there's no point buying more to work up because the supply will dry up pretty soon.

[Larry Gibson]

If the N 140 is an extruded (?) powder I would try it 1st instead of the ball powders. It is supposed to be comparable to Varget, 4320 and RL15 which is a good burning rate for what you want. Assuming (?) you have magnum primers to use which is okay starting low and working up. I suggest a start load of 38 gr with the Dacron filler.

The H414 can give inconsistent ignition at lower pressures. Thus I suggest if the N 140 doesn't work try the H335 and then the BLC-2.

Do you have a chronograph?

[runfiverun]

414 is better at a case full with some slight compression.
that would be waaay too much.

36grs of the 335 with a filler might be useful here too.

if the N-140 IS right near varget my original [3031-4064] loads with the filler would still apply as far as velocity, I'm not really familiar with the powder.

[tomme boy]

I would stay away from the ball powders if you can. I just do not like them with a reduced load. I really like Varget for lots of calibers.

Larry, what about some of the 20mm and 50 cal powders? Would it work?

[runfiverun]

something like 68grs of AA-8700 would get him near 1850-1900.
I would use a bit hotter primer.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thanks all for taking the time to point me in the right direction. I'll go with the .338 mold next time I'm at the gun shop. I figure I'll need a mold, sizing die and gas checks. I can pick all of those up for about the same cost as 100 .338 bullets so it's not a big investment.

Powder wise I probably have something here. If not the European makers offer plenty of choice so I should be able to find something close to that burn rate. I usually load my .338 with Alliant Reloder 22.

I used Reloder 22 quite a bit in my .300H&H, with excellent results. But I think it is too slow to give good performance, or perhaps even safety, with a part-filled case - and Dacron or kapok are part-filled cases, as far as volumetric ratio goes. I would much prefer a slower powder.

I agree, the .338 is a far better way of trying for that 1700ft./lb. than the 6.5x55,, and should be thoroughly effective on deer at a velocity that just achieves it. At such velocities a medium-hard alloy, with the malleability of more tin than antimony, should be very satisfactory.

[Larry Gibson]

Tomme boy & runfiverun

Probably would work with those really slow powders but I was sticking to what powders the OP had or were possibly available him being in the UK.

[Larry Gibson]

I used Reloder 22 quite a bit in my .300H&H, with excellent results. But I think it is too slow to give good performance, or perhaps even safety, with a part-filled case - and Dacron or kapok are part-filled cases, as far as volumetric ratio goes. I would much prefer a slower powder.

I agree, the .338 is a far better way of trying for that 1700ft./lb. than the 6.5x55,, and should be thoroughly effective on deer at a velocity that just achieves it. At such velocities a medium-hard alloy, with the malleability of more tin than antimony, should be very satisfactory.

Not being critical of your post as I certainly agree with it, just pointing out something many do not understand.

One aspect with the proper use of a filler such as Dacron, kapok and Grex is that it acts as a case capacity reducer. That lowers the volumetric ratio. This is born out in the better ES/SD fps and higher velocity readings when a filler is used vs not used with a given load. It also is demonstrated with actual pressure readings where the time/pressure curve is measured. With a given load w/o the filler we many times se an uneven, erratic or pressure spiked pressure trace. With the same load using the filler the pressure trace smooths out showing an even progressive burn rate.

My recommendation, based on many such time/pressure (pressure trace) measurements with a variety of loads using various medium to slow burning rate powders is to use the filler if the load density of the powders is less than 80 - 85%.

[vzerone]

He may not have access to the slow surplus ball powders in the UK. I'm sure some load if it would work, but one thing I don't like about that ball powder is it burns extremely hot.

I gave 414 powder one try many years ago and didn't like it at all. I shot the remainder of it up cast 30-40 loads.

[swheeler]

I think I WOULD try the H414 with a dacron filler and a magnum primer, start at 40 grs and work up to your target velocity. 1800 fps would be my guess for the 40.0 gr loading with enough well fluffed dacron to fill the space from the top of the powder to the base of the bullet very lightly compressed by the bullet. You should be able to maintain hunting accuracy to 1950-2000 fps if you cast GOOD bullets that fit the throat of your rifle. Published data for cast in the 338WinMag only has data for a 209 gr(actual weight)cast and H414 with a mag primer, don't remember exactly but seems my 220 Lee cast of wheel weight weighs 217 fully dress with check and lube, close enough to 209 for Gov't work! Good luck and keep us posted.

I just weighed a few of the Lee 220 gr cast of wdww 218gr

[runfiverun]

I don't know Scott if I were to try it I would use a much denser filler than Dacron with the 414.
it really needs good initial resistance to burn well.

[Bjornb]

I have that Lee Mould for the 338. I'll cast up some and try shooting them in my Goodsteel-built Tikka T3 (Tim's first carbon fiber-wrapped barrel; very cool). I have all the powders discussed here, including the whole battery of MilSurp 20mm powders (WC867, 870,872). I'm a little curious as to how it'll shoot with cast.

(For those who may be interested, that mould casts the go-to bullet for the Austrian M95 push-action carbine in 8x56R. Sized down to .335. A tip from Buckshot that worked like a dream).

[Bjornb]

I don't know Scott if I were to try it I would use a much denser filler than Dacron with the 414.
it really needs good initial resistance to burn well.

Totally agree. It would be a candidate for Buffer or COW. H414/W760 is a scary powder. Gave great velocity in the 30XCB but ES and SD were all over creation.

[swheeler]

I don't know Scott if I were to try it I would use a much denser filler than Dacron with the 414.
it really needs good initial resistance to burn well.

If you were talking about BLC2 I'd be more inclined to agree I think it being a published cast load without a filler it would at the least be worth a try, may not be what your looking for but worth a try especially when the OP has lots of it on hand. No COW for me in a bottleneck and the PSB?? sounds like a LOT of it to finish filling the case that is 65% full of powder. Just my .02