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Thread: High velocity rifles and cast boolits

  1. #41
    Boolit Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    If considering the really slow ball powders such as WC860 a look at the duplexing test I did for waksupi in the 375 H&H might be worth a look?
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  2. #42
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    Geesh I may have to agree with you swheeler. Far as COW I have no use for it what so ever. Now PSB is a totally different animal then the BPI buffer that's like powdered sugar which doesn't flow. The PSB does flow and very well and the advertisement for it states how it flows and get between the shot. Now as to whether I would want a lot of anykind of filler in that bottleneck 338 case a big NO.

  3. #43
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    Larry that surplus powder indeed might be worth looking at, but I'm afraid the OP may not be able to buy those surplus powders in the UK do to ITAR regulations.

  4. #44
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    Gunlover

    Yeah, I figured that and mentioned earlier the OP may not have that type of powders available to him. Seems like the thread is morphing in the direction of those powders anyway.......sometimes we just can't keep threads on track......
    Larry Gibson

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  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by vzerone View Post
    Geesh I may have to agree with you swheeler. Far as COW I have no use for it what so ever. Now PSB is a totally different animal then the BPI buffer that's like powdered sugar which doesn't flow. The PSB does flow and very well and the advertisement for it states how it flows and get between the shot. Now as to whether I would want a lot of anykind of filler in that bottleneck 338 case a big NO.
    Cream of Wheat is great for breakfast, but not in reloads as filler! I've used corn meal in my 12 ga punkin ball loads, but it's inside the shot cup. The OP has more going for him than he thinks with the powders on hand and believe every one of them could be used to some degree of success with cast in the 338WM, he'll definately learn his way around fillers. Larry's suggestion of RL22 and dacron would be my second choice, blc2 would be my last but have used it too with dacron with good results but in a much smaller case. Hopefully the OP will report back with good news and share his loadings, best of luck. swheeler
    Hell, I was there!

  6. #46
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    Isn't wc870 the same powder as H870? Might cross with ADI??

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomme boy View Post
    Isn't wc870 the same powder as H870? Might cross with ADI??
    tomme all those powders WC 870, H 870 and I believe 8700 are supposed to be the same, but I believe there are some differences between them. Just like WC 872 and WC 867 are said to use the same load data and think it was Wideners to name one said to use 8700 data. Well that I definitely don't agree with. Shooting 867, 872, 870, and 860 out of the same rifle with the same grain load and same cast bullet they listed more then a difference in velocity over the chrono. The list from the highest velocity to the lowest is : 867, 872, 860, and 870. Now that is with the lots that I have. There was quite a bit of difference in velocity between 867 and 870. There was enough difference between 867 and 872 that I wouldn't swap max loads between the two. Also when you use a powder measure to throw your charges you have to reset it for each of the different powders to get the same charge weight.

    I remember when Hodgdon sold the H870 as a canister powder as I bought much of it for 30-06 cast loads.

    Hope that helps some.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    ...As mentioned by myself, Bjorn and runfiverun using the Lee C338-220 cast bullet in your 338 Win Mag is the easiest, quickest, surest way to get a very useable legal hunting load of 1870 - 1950 fps that you can consistently load and that will consistently give excellent performance. You won't need exotic equipment you probably don't already have. .......
    Not personally played with the .338 bore nor have any experience in the caliber with cast, looks like a easier path.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    No COW for me in a bottleneck and the PSB?? sounds like a LOT of it to finish filling the case that is 65% full of powder. Just my .02
    You may very well be right Scott. But that's what testing is for. I'll give it a shot, no pun intended. Long time, hope you're doing well.

  10. #50
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    Thanks for asking, life is good. Testing would be nice and I'm sure our fellow caster across the pond would greatly appreciate the help.
    Hell, I was there!

  11. #51
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    I do have a chronograph available to me at the range. I have magnum primers too, although I don't remember the make. I'll start off trying N140 and see how it goes. I'm not likely to get any results until February though sadly as that's the next time I'll be at the range.

    I'll post up my results as and when I get them. I need to find .338 gas checks and a sizer first - it's really not a common calibre here!

  12. #52
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    njc110381

    Sure would like to help you out with some stuff but getting it there, if not impossible, would be cost prohibitive......

    Looking forward to your test results.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  13. #53
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    Here is the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual data, pg 88

    Win M70 24 inch barrel-1:10 twist
    W-W brass
    CCI 250 Mag primer
    bullet 33-200-FN- as cast weight 209grs

    H414 start 43.0-1897 fps, 45.0- 2003 fps

    Their data doesn't use a filler. Since you have a good supply of this powder I would give it a try, your bullets should be 9-10 grs heavier at most?
    Hell, I was there!

  14. #54
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    Nothing really to add, I think you can do what you need to do with that .338 and Lee bullet pretty easily. Based on my experience on deer using .30s, .32 and .35s, you shouldn't have any problems.

    What kind of deer do you hunt in the UK? Are they as big on average as our white tails here in the US?

  15. #55
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    Thanks Larry. I'll find a way. Nothing is impossible - Midway have a UK outlet if I'm stuck. Expensive once taxes have been added but possible at least.

    We have five species of deer here. Only one of which is considerably bigger than a whitetail and I don't have the big ones in my area anyway. The ones by me grow up to about 125lb. Reds make 450lb or so but are really only around in Scotland or the very south of England. I've only shot two of those out of my thousand or so total deer count, so they don't need to be considered.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Not being critical of your post as I certainly agree with it, just pointing out something many do not understand.

    One aspect with the proper use of a filler such as Dacron, kapok and Grex is that it acts as a case capacity reducer. That lowers the volumetric ratio. This is born out in the better ES/SD fps and higher velocity readings when a filler is used vs not used with a given load. It also is demonstrated with actual pressure readings where the time/pressure curve is measured. With a given load w/o the filler we many times se an uneven, erratic or pressure spiked pressure trace. With the same load using the filler the pressure trace smooths out showing an even progressive burn rate.
    I think all of that may be explained by the distribution of the powder in the case, and variation in the consistency of ignition, when there is or isn't an airspace. Fillers such as cream of wheat have bulk, and do alter the volumetric ratio. (there may be a problem with jamming in the case neck, but it should be harmless with light loads.) The light, fibrous fillers have almost no volume when they are penetrated by the powder gases, and their effect on the volumetric ratio is very small. Kapok fibres in particular are tubular and air or gas filled, hence their use in life-jackets. So under pressure they have virtually no volume at all. They have their uses, but I think it is with small charges of fast-burning, easily ignited powders, which don't build up a pressure wave like the slow ones can.

    It is a long time since I have used them, but the cigarette filter tips available in the UK used to be filled with precisely-measured and longitudinally aligned doses of what I believe was kapok. I used to insert a couple, one at a time, in case-necks, and slit the wrapper with a little model bayonet stamped "Ypres". Some charred and much shortened fibre pieces emerged at the muzzle, but most of it just burned up.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    I think all of that may be explained by the distribution of the powder in the case, and variation in the consistency of ignition, when there is or isn't an airspace. Fillers such as cream of wheat have bulk, and do alter the volumetric ratio. (there may be a problem with jamming in the case neck, but it should be harmless with light loads.) The light, fibrous fillers have almost no volume when they are penetrated by the powder gases, and their effect on the volumetric ratio is very small. Kapok fibres in particular are tubular and air or gas filled, hence their use in life-jackets. So under pressure they have virtually no volume at all. They have their uses, but I think it is with small charges of fast-burning, easily ignited powders, which don't build up a pressure wave like the slow ones can.

    It is a long time since I have used them, but the cigarette filter tips available in the UK used to be filled with precisely-measured and longitudinally aligned doses of what I believe was kapok. I used to insert a couple, one at a time, in case-necks, and slit the wrapper with a little model bayonet stamped "Ypres". Some charred and much shortened fibre pieces emerged at the muzzle, but most of it just burned up.
    Ballistics in Scotland that is a wonderful assertion especially on the light fillers such as Dacron and Kapok. I was wondering when someone was going to wake up and point this out. Ballistics in Scotland I'm not saying you woke up sir, you have been aware of this for some time. Your knowledge never ceases to amaze and I look forward to each and every one of your posts.

  18. #58
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    Here's how it works;

    If we put a given charge of powder in a .308W and a 30-06 under the same bullet with all other factors being equal the load in the .308W will generate a higher pressure and a higher velocity. Why? simply because the .308W has less case capacity (volume) than the 30-06. If we pre-position the powder in both cases the same the results will be the same; more pressure and higher velocity for the .308W. That is fact, not what I think. It is fact because both pressure and velocity are measureable and I have measured both. It is a ballistic fact that all ballisticians and most laymen understand; for a given velocity a larger case (volume) will produce less pressure. Load both a 30-06 and a .308W with the same powder/bullet to the same velocity and the 30-06 will have less pressure. There are many, many examples of cartridges being made so they will have lower pressures with larger case capacity for a given bullet at a given velocity than other cartridges, many of the large African cartridges of yore for use in tropical heat are prime examples. It's why many .416s (example) of today are touted as "equaling" the 416 Rigby velocity with the same weight bullets......they do that in their smaller cases at much higher pressures.

    Now let's take the .308W with a given cast bullet and use 4895 powder. A given charge pre-positioned in 3 different locations will give 3 different pressure/velocity results. Let's pre-position the powder against the primer and then do the same but use a small Dacron or kapok wad. The load with the wad will again have higher pressure and velocity. Perhaps not by much but the increase will still be but the ES an SD may or may not be less. Now, lets take the same load and put a proper filler of Dacron or kapok that fills up the air space (empty volume) in the case. The resulting pressure and velocity will have a marked increase and the ES and the SD will most often be improved. This happens because we have held the powder in a more consistent position against the primer and because we have reduced (noticed that is "reduced", not eliminated) the volumetric ratio.

    Please recall I do not recommend the use of fillers with fast burning powders. The use of a correct burning rate of fast powder that ignites easily and uniformly does not require a filler for best internal ballistics.

    Those results are what I have measured from repeated tests in numerous cartridges using a Dacron filler where it is beneficial to uniform internal ballistics.

    So please, for the sake of discussion, if you have documented test results demonstrating a Dacron or kapok filler (not wad) does not alter the volumetric ratio then would you please post those test results? If you have test results that prove me wrong excellent, I welcome learning. That's how we all learn and improve on our cast bullet shooting endeavors. Proving what we think isn't always right and proving many of my own original cast bullet beliefs ( learned through reading as much as I could years ago and still do read) wrong or partially wrong has led me down a path of knowledge that still continues. I've come to accept that many times what we "think" just isn't so. Here and on other sites I endeavor to pass on the knowledge I've gained from factual results gained through comprehensive testing.

    Also much of what I think I know today isn't what I thought I knew in the past. I doubt if all what I think I know today will be what I know in the future. It continues to be a learning experience. Additionally, I've also come to understand we learn best based on facts gained through actual testing, not supposition. So, again, if you've some factual test evidence to prove me incorrect please present it.......I wish to continue learning.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 01-05-2018 at 03:28 PM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  19. #59
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    I like to use coco wheats as it seasons the bore. Your mileage may vary

  20. #60
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    If it wasn't for dacron as a filler/ powder positioning my use of medium speed powders in reduced loads would be greatly diminished, especially medium-med slow ball powders. I am not one to shoot click-bang loads that have triple digit extreme spreads with cases covered in soot from neck to head(you say increase the load- I'm usually shooting for a velocity at or below the RPMT- yep I said it). I can use a little dacron fluffed to fill all the air space between powder and bullet base and cut ES in half, get good consistent ignition and clean up the burn while maintaining my target velocity. I also believe it has some benefit in sealing the bore/ conditioning bore. I have and use PSB in the form of BPI original buffer, but I use far more dacron. Just like Larry I do not use it with fast shotgun powders. JoAnn's Fabric thinks I'm a quilter!!
    Hell, I was there!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check