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Thread: Shot In A Rifle Cartridge? Gun Show find...

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earlwb View Post
    You would use one of the fast burning shotgun propellants. You can usually find reloading data for shotshells for most any caliber on the internet. Pistol rounds generally need a capsule of some type. Rifle rounds can contain the shot within without any difficulty. You basically load the shotshell cartridge the same way you do a shotgun shell. Case, propellant charge, a wad and spacer, the shot and a paper cap. The lip of the case is curled over enough to keep the cap in place. As mentioned, Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, 2400 and some others are all used for propellant. Faster pistol propellants would work too.

    Now if you could get a longer case that you can size down, you can have the end protruding like a bullet and crimp it to hold the shot in place. Sort of like what some of the old blanks do.

    Here is a example:
    for .45 ACP:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LC4_UZfJZE

    Oh yeah, I ran across a article on Wikipedia about "rat-shot" too.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-shot

    I have Hodgdon International powder for my shotshells, but my issue is that its for 40-82 in a Winchester 1886, that was made in 1889. So Im not sure if the modern fast burning powder will blow up the gun?

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earlwb View Post
    You would use one of the fast burning shotgun propellants. You can usually find reloading data for shotshells for most any caliber on the internet. Pistol rounds generally need a capsule of some type. Rifle rounds can contain the shot within without any difficulty. You basically load the shotshell cartridge the same way you do a shotgun shell. Case, propellant charge, a wad and spacer, the shot and a paper cap. The lip of the case is curled over enough to keep the cap in place. As mentioned, Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, 2400 and some others are all used for propellant. Faster pistol propellants would work too.

    Now if you could get a longer case that you can size down, you can have the end protruding like a bullet and crimp it to hold the shot in place. Sort of like what some of the old blanks do.

    Here is a example:
    for .45 ACP:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LC4_UZfJZE

    Oh yeah, I ran across a article on Wikipedia about "rat-shot" too.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-shot

    Well my rifle is a WInchester 40-82 1886, made in 1889. So im not sure fast burning powders will work?

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy
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    Good point. I would suggest using a black powder charge for the 40-82. Maybe using the load data for a old black powder .410 bore shotshell load would work.
    Last edited by Earlwb; 12-27-2017 at 08:49 AM. Reason: add more information

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy Kev18's Avatar
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    Ah, good idea. I have 2f goex and pyrodex. Il see where I could by shot now.

  5. #25
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    As for the photo problem, and photo bucket, I just use Tapatalk. Tapatalk is free, the as free is $2, and they host photos for free and make it really easy to browse the forum and upload photos to the forum on one convenient app. You can also Browse all the forums in the same app, and do it all from your phone. Here is a pic I took while typing.

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  6. #26
    Boolit Master TNsailorman's Avatar
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    I used to see similar cartridges at gun shows years ago but never had any interest in some so never bothered to buy one. Back in the day they had what was called a "forage gun" and loaded ammo like your cartridge for them. They were for small game. Some research on the old Army manuals and books just might turn up some data on them. Might want to "google" forage guns also. james

  7. #27
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    I upload pictures directly from my computer. The problem with my camera is that they are way too big for the site to upload. Go to your Paint program and reduce them 25% and they load fine. Or rather, in the resize box I put in 25 and that is adequate. I don't know if it resizes them 25% or 75%, but they load after doing this.
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  8. #28
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    In old 45-70, from the 1890's I've pulled down, I've found round ball on top of a full column of black. Some other old ones had the balloon primer pockets.

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy Kev18's Avatar
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    I'm considering loading up these shot shell cartridges considering I bought browning 12 gauge ammo and it has 8 shot I could salvage in it. But does anyone think a standard. 410 shell would work in there, I might need to load it with BP though.
    Last edited by Pressman; 03-07-2018 at 09:30 PM.

  10. #30
    Weight and balance should tell you if it is a shot cartridge or blank. A modern case is likely to be heavier than those old ones, but not enough to conceal a missing shot charge.

    There were US army foraging trapdoor Springfields, but probably not many, and it is common practice in the antique gun trade to describe every kind of smoothbored military rifle as a military forager, even though most are conversions for the surplus market. For the 44-40 shotshell purpose made smoothbores like the Marble Game Getter or H&R shotguns were fairly common. But I never heard of any smoothbore .40-82s, or military rifles in that chambering.

    A lot of muzzle-loading Enfields and its Snider breechloading conversion were smoothbored for the Indian Army, and it is sometimes thought that it was to keep them less dangerous than white troops, in case of another Great Mutiny. But that certainly didn't apply to the Lee-Enfields for a special .410 cartridge. I don't think there was ever a time when rifles weren't common issue, or British officers wouldn't rather be shot at by Russians, Germans or Japanese. They were used for riot control or sentry duty which was hoped to be non-lethal. On the Border rifle thief was an honourable profession, not to be confused with dishonesty, and often conducted by blood relatives of serving soldiers, in a society where a good blood-feud was a precious heirloom.

    I have a copy of the regulations for the Bengal and Punjab cavalry in 1896. Soldiers going home on leave to the Unadministered Territory or Afghanistan were forbidden to take a rifle, which was like carrying its weight in silver around, but could take a personal "gun" (i.e. smoothbore) or draw one from the armoury.

    Gelatine pharmaceutical capsules, available empty on eBay, can be used to make shot capsules for some small calibres. They are designed to dissolve in your internals, so they won't resist damp like the capsules ammunition companies use, but are otherwise very similar.

    There are two reasons for rifling to widen a shot pattern, and one of them, deformation of the outlying pellets to produce a fringed of "fliers", is much reduced by any sort of capsule or sleeve. Centrifugal force will also widen the pattern, but probably not in a hollow doughnut if the pellets are small. The nearer the centre of the charge, the tighter the helix in which the pellet is travelling, until those right in the centre are simply spinning on their own axis, which doesn't count. Large buckshot don't permit such a continuous range of positions, so those will form a doughnut pattern, and most of them may be rifling-deformed into the bargain.

    I have a French military textbook which illustrates a pattern fired with shot from the 11mm. Gras rifle. No doubt the total spread was much wider than a smoothbore, but it showed that fringe caused by fliers, an almost empty space, and then a cluster of tighter pattern in the centre. But the Gras had particularly deep rifling. W. Milton Farrow, author of the modestly entitled "How I became a Crack Shot", describes a European tour in which the Germans were rule-benders and poor losers, but the French couldn't have been nicer about being outshot. He didn't like the Gras, though, as he called the bore almost square. It must have been particularly bad for deforming pellets.

    If you click on "Go Advanced" you will find a "Manage Attachments" button some way below the text box. That will let you upload pictures to the site, reducing their size if they are large, but good enough to display well. I have a maximum of 10mb storage, to which I am now close. So I have to cut down occasionally in "My Account" by removing the more frivolous ones. I don't remember whether you have to do anything special in your account to have this facility.
    Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 03-07-2018 at 06:13 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check