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Thread: Shot In A Rifle Cartridge? Gun Show find...

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Shot In A Rifle Cartridge? Gun Show find...

    So I bought a bunch of 40-82 ammo from a gun show a couple years ago. All of the ammo looks normal except for one. (I tried adding a photo but it says that the upload failed. I dont know why?) Anyways, the cartridge looks like a blank. it doesn't have any bullet in it. Just a piece of paper, like one resembling a shot card on an old 12 gauge brass shell. I asked the guy if it was a blank and he said it wasn't. Here's where I get iffy. He said its loaded with small shot (Like a shotgun). When he told me, I said that it seemed odd. In shotguns you can shoot slugs and shot out of a smooth bore but not out a rifled barrel. You can but it might mess up the rifling. He assured me that people used those to kill snakes if need be. has anyone ever heard of anything like this?

    Also all the ammo, including the one "shot cartridge" mentioned above is W.R.A.CO stamped except for a Soft point thats Remington.

    P.S If anyone could just tell me why Im having a hard time getting pictures on here, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Nueces's Avatar
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    I've read that such shot rounds were loaded for military foragers and, of course, anyone could have loaded shot back in the day.

    As for your photo problem, this site does not allow direct uploads of photos. Ya gotta host the photo somewhere (not your computer) and link to it in a post. There are instructions in one of the stickies up top.

    When you get that straightened out, I sure would like to see pix of that ammo!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Here are some pics.

    See what I mean with the "blank looking cartridge"?


    Last edited by Kev18; 12-24-2017 at 12:14 PM.

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    Boolit Master
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    Yes they made shot shells for rifle cartridges. The first I saw was for the 45-70 cartridges used by the Army way back then. They would send out foragers to get food for the troops. They used the shot shells on small game at close range. The 45-70 shotshell used a thin wood sabot that looked like a bullet, but was filled with shot. The sabot tended to come apart in the rifling and helped keep the shot together for a better shot pattern.
    ref http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitari...6_item_058.htm

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    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Thanks! I dont have wood on mine, but atleast now I know !

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    Lead shot will not "mess up the rifling", any more than a lead boolit will. Commercially loaded shotshells have been available, for 22LR and various handgun/lever cartridges, off and on for decades.

    The issue is not what the shot will do to the rifling, but the other way around. Rifling causes the pattern to "blow out." If you pattern it against some large paper, you'll get a ring with very little in the middle... and the ring won't be that even.

    For very short range against a snake, that'll work.
    I give loading advice based on my actual results in factory rifles with standard chambers, twist rates and basic accurizing.
    My goals for using cast boolits are lots of good, cheap, and reasonably accurate shooting, while avoiding overly tedious loading processes.
    The BHN Deformation Formula, and why I don't use it.
    How to find and fix sizing die eccentricity problems.
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    Kev, you got the photo hosting just right, the snag being that photo bucket (rhymes with Nantucket) has begun charging users to allow hosting for access to other sites. I'm in the same boat, have not yet moved to another site. There are threads herein discussing alternatives.

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    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HangFireW8 View Post
    Lead shot will not "mess up the rifling", any more than a lead boolit will. Commercially loaded shotshells have been available, for 22LR and various handgun/lever cartridges, off and on for decades.

    The issue is not what the shot will do to the rifling, but the other way around. Rifling causes the pattern to "blow out." If you pattern it against some large paper, you'll get a ring with very little in the middle... and the ring won't be that even.

    For very short range against a snake, that'll work.


    Thanks, do you know what shot they loaded in there? Just standard bird shot?

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nueces View Post
    Kev, you got the photo hosting just right, the snag being that photo bucket (rhymes with Nantucket) has begun charging users to allow hosting for access to other sites. I'm in the same boat, have not yet moved to another site. There are threads herein discussing alternatives.
    I used Imgur and re-uploaded the pictures. Can you guyy see them now? I can.

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    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    I used Imgur and re-uploaded the pictures. Can you guyy see them now? I can.
    Yes! Thanks for sussing that out, I may do the same.

    That nice roll crimp on the shot round speaks of a factory loading.

  11. #11
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    FWIW, the .40-82 shot loading first appeared in W.R.A.Co.'s catalog for 1898, and was last offered in their catalog for 1916.

    Jim


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    Sorry, don't know what size shot, I'm not a 40-82 expert. I've played with a few more common ones (357/38, 45 Colt, 22LR) and wasn't that impressed.
    I give loading advice based on my actual results in factory rifles with standard chambers, twist rates and basic accurizing.
    My goals for using cast boolits are lots of good, cheap, and reasonably accurate shooting, while avoiding overly tedious loading processes.
    The BHN Deformation Formula, and why I don't use it.
    How to find and fix sizing die eccentricity problems.
    Do you trust your casting thermometer?
    A few musings.

  13. #13
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    Contrary to the earlier post you don't need a pic hosting site to upload here.

    Except in PMs you can upload any pic on your computer.

    For example:

    Name:  13925251_1043187392439424_4526249361329745897_n.jpg
Views: 454
Size:  11.5 KB

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    Thanks, do you know what shot they loaded in there? Just standard bird shot?
    They used #8 or #9 shot. Short range, so you don't want to mangle the game much.

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    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earlwb View Post
    They used #8 or #9 shot. Short range, so you don't want to mangle the game much.
    What would they hunt though? I have old .22 shot shells and Ive been told people used to, and still do use them for clearing rats out of them house. If its not accurate at long ranges I dont see how it could be effective? Unless you sneak up on a rabbit or squirrel.

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    Boolit Master
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    The rifle/handgun shotshell cartridges are intended for vermin, such as rats, mice, snakes, large insects and such. The modern ones use a plastic cap similar to the old wooden caps on the .45-70 rounds. The plastic cap sort of acts as a sabot and tends to help keep the shot together more. But you need to run a pattern test and see what kind of range you get with your particular gun.

    As I remember when I tried some .22 Long Rifle shot shells with a crimped end on them, the range was about 5 to 6 feet (maybe 10 feet if you are lucky) before the shot pattern got spread out too much. The plastic cap modern version of the .22 LR shot shells may have more range to them though. But I haven't tried shooting any of them yet.

    Now with a .22 LR rifle you could almost touch the barrel end to the head of a rattlesnake before you shot it. I don't remember too many rattlesnakes wanting to stand their ground though. They usually were doing their best to skedaddle away.

    Way back in the old western days, the Army Foragers would try to sneak in close on small game to shoot them. The 45-70 shot shells were similar to shooting a .410 shotgun. But the range was limited though.
    Last edited by Earlwb; 12-25-2017 at 09:56 PM. Reason: add more information

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    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earlwb View Post
    The rifle/handgun shotshell cartridges are intended for vermin, such as rats, mice, snakes, large insects and such. The modern ones use a plastic cap similar to the old wooden caps on the .45-70 rounds. The plastic cap sort of acts as a sabot and tends to help keep the shot together more. But you need to run a pattern test and see what kind of range you get with your particular gun.

    As I remember when I tried some .22 Long Rifle shot shells with a crimped end on them, the range was about 5 to 6 feet (maybe 10 feet if you are lucky) before the shot pattern got spread out too much. The plastic cap modern version of the .22 LR shot shells may have more range to them though. But I haven't tried shooting any of them yet.

    Now with a .22 LR rifle you could almost touch the barrel end to the head of a rattlesnake before you shot it. I don't remember too many rattlesnakes wanting to stand their ground though. They usually were doing their best to skedaddle away.

    Way back in the old western days, the Army Foragers would try to sneak in close on small game to shoot them. The 45-70 shot shells were similar to shooting a .410 shotgun. But the range was limited though.
    Alright, so technically if I would get some small shot, I could load some... Except im not sure what powder to use. For a 260gr lead boolit I use 3031 but I dont think its the same for shot?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    Alright, so technically if I would get some small shot, I could load some... Except im not sure what powder to use. For a 260gr lead boolit I use 3031 but I dont think its the same for shot?
    Powder variety is now embarrassingly huge. Unique used to be recommended for small bore shotshells (back when Bullseye, Unique and 2400 were all a man needed) and would still be a good choice.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    That cartridge Is Just a 40/82 shot Made for lever action rifles. Paper sabots will not work in the mags wood was Unreliable for the same reason.
    The companies all made shot and blank for all cartridge. . Unlike today many people Only had 1 rifle and used it for everything
    NRA Endowment Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    Alright, so technically if I would get some small shot, I could load some... Except im not sure what powder to use. For a 260gr lead boolit I use 3031 but I dont think its the same for shot?
    You would use one of the fast burning shotgun propellants. You can usually find reloading data for shotshells for most any caliber on the internet. Pistol rounds generally need a capsule of some type. Rifle rounds can contain the shot within without any difficulty. You basically load the shotshell cartridge the same way you do a shotgun shell. Case, propellant charge, a wad and spacer, the shot and a paper cap. The lip of the case is curled over enough to keep the cap in place. As mentioned, Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, 2400 and some others are all used for propellant. Faster pistol propellants would work too.

    Now if you could get a longer case that you can size down, you can have the end protruding like a bullet and crimp it to hold the shot in place. Sort of like what some of the old blanks do.

    Here is a example:
    for .45 ACP:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LC4_UZfJZE

    Oh yeah, I ran across a article on Wikipedia about "rat-shot" too.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-shot
    Last edited by Earlwb; 12-26-2017 at 07:32 PM. Reason: add more information

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check