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Thread: Moose scraps, dead brown bear, three blacktails and playing with core bonding

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy PWS's Avatar
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    Moose scraps, dead brown bear, three blacktails and playing with core bonding

    Hunting seasons are winding down and I've had a chance to play around with more home swaged hunting bullets this fall. I carried a 21" Shilen barreled M70 chambered in .400 Whelen for both guiding moose and bear clients and my own deer hunting this fall. Here's a thread over on AccurateReloading with a lot of info and data on the .400.

    http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3/m/7511088471

    I only used one load, a 350gr core bonded bullet at 2300MV, made with drawn '06 or 308 brass and tried three types of core material. I started the season with SOWW alloy cores and had an opportunity to shoot at least ten slugs into moose bones and scraps and one 9 1/2' brown bear carcass.

    In the moose scraps, the bullets penetrated around 24" and appeared to open quickly, leaving a 3" permanent hole for about 8-10" then closing up to where the bullets were found. The scrap pile was stacked with a scapula about every 10" to help trace the bullets. A lot of scraps went flying when hit by one of these rapidly opening slugs!

    When testing bullets in a bear carcass, I use a few angles as standard shots for comparison purposes. One is across the neck with the thought that it would prove whether the load could break a bear's neck and be a viable load for self defense. To put it in perspective, at PBR, a .338WinMag/250gr Partition/2700MV will generally penetrate to the vertebra, break it handily but remain within that area. Most hard cast magnum revolver loads with do the same - 180gr .357s, 240-300gr .44s etc. A 300gr .338 Accubond at 2500 will exit the neck completely. The 350gr .400 managed to penetrate the neck completely, including a good bit of destruction at the vertebra and I luckily found one of the slugs in the dirt on the offside (the other ricocheted away).

    Another standard test shot is on the shoulder, trying to hit the humerus and to see if the load will break one major bone structure and carry on into the vitals. Most hard cast magnum pistols are barely capable of this much penetration but the holes are VERY small. The 350gr/400 managed to smash the humerus rather well but once inside the rib cage, it only made it as far as the heart. That did not seem like much penetration.

    With these results, it made up some more 350grainers with 12:1 and 20:1 cores with the thought that a harder core might mushroom less. These bullets were test fired into water and used to hunt deer.

    The first deer was shot with a SOWW bonded cored and was a good 250-275 yards away. Bullet caught the 175lb buck on one shoulder right at the scapula/humerus joint and exited at the same on the offside. Needless to say, the deer didn't go anywhere. Total penetration was approximately 10" but I was delighted with "baseball" sized areas of destruction on the inside with modest bloodshotting. I was afraid there'd be little left of the shoulders but that wasn't the case.

    Second deer, another 175lb buck, was shot with a 12:1 bonded core and was running almost directly away at approximately 150 yards. The bullet caught him in the right hamstring, penetrated forward through the ham, through the paunch, through the liver and was recovered under the skin about 1/3 of the way forward along the left rib cage. The buck did not react to the shot but there was a lot of hair where he was hit and he only made it another 50 yards where he bedded down just inside some timber. He was sick enough to be pretty much down and out but I immediately put a mercy shot into the base of his skull.

    The 12:1 core has proved to be disappointing in this deer and also water. Instead of holding together like the SOWW cores, they crumble and even though there's a lead wash bonded to the inside of the peeled back jackets, the core has separated.

    Last deer was back to the SOWW cores. This was a 100lb doe that gave me a perfectly straight on frontal shot. The bullet entered her throat, nicking the vertebra on the way in, split all the vessels above the heart, missed the liver but penetrated the stomach and paunch, penetrated the inside top of the left ham and exited just beside her tail! I was hoping to get a lengthwise shot and recover another bullet but not to be. This slug penetrated a good 32-36" and since she was in tall grass, no chance of finding the slug. The deer collapsed to the shot. The same damage evident in the moose scraps occurred in the deer but due to placement, it was all in the chest and I recovered almost 100% of the meat (wonderfully delicious meat!)

    So, I'm really liking the weight retention of the SOWW cores and for anything less than bears, they'll give plenty of penetration. To use up and test some random slugs, I shot the remainder into water. It appears that 20:1 is a little better than 12:1 but not quite the answer. I'll try some 30:1 this winter to see if that will reduce the mushroom diameter yet remain ductile enough to retain 90% or better. I've thought of Corbin's "partition" trick of two jackets, one up-side-down in the other but that seems like a lot of work. Any other suggestions are welcome!

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy PWS's Avatar
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    A little info on the bullets in the picture.

    First column is 350gr SOWW bonded, top two into water, bottom two into bear carcass.
    Unfired 350gr bullet
    Second column is 350gr 20:1 bonded into water
    350gr 12:1 recovered from deer (235gr retained, 67%, ~.600diameter)
    Third column is 350gr 12:1 bonded into water
    Fourth column, one 400gr .223 jacket, unbonded, fired into water and recovered on bottom of sandy pond at 150 yards
    400gr .223 jacketed bullet
    Fifth column is 400gr 20:1 bonded into water
    Sixth column is 400gr 12:1 bonded into water

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


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    Very informative write up thank you for taking the time to share your information and research and photos ... very interesting topic and my next phase of cast rifle development

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    The partition idea intrigues me. Granted, rather tedious, but then you're not going to be mass producing them. I would think that 150-200 bullets would last for a couple of years of actual hunting. You could spend a winter making bullets and a summer testing them, and you'd be ready for the next fall and hunting season.
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    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...hp?345249-Deer

    I went a little different route with my alloy.
    maybe some different ideas?

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    Boolit Buddy uncle dino's Avatar
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    R5R. I have found that tin in the alloy is very sensitive to bonding temps. We have the tendency to heat too much...too hot and the bond will actually break .use minimum amount of heat. Just enough to melt core. I stop as soon as I see the air bubble under the core "burp" out.. Chances are you are softening brass jacket quite a bit too. Minimum heat will keep your jacket harder and minimize oxidation..easier to clean..d

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    thank's Dino.
    I have been worried about softening the jacket.
    as far as I know I have no tin in the alloy, just the antimony.
    my melt temp is under 700-f, but the little heating tool I'm using is quite crude.

    it's a hot plate, a couple of saw blades [one is bent over at the edges] welded together to make a stand of sorts with holes drilled in it to hold the jackets and cores upright, and a stainless steel bowl as a lid.
    I'm kind of surprised it even melts the lead.

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    Boolit Buddy uncle dino's Avatar
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    I must've misunderstood, you referenced 12:1 and 20:1 in your post.. Yes, less than 800 degrees is best.. The quicker you heat and cool the better..d

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    that was PWS.
    I was just trying to understand the tin/lead core alloy.
    and was pointing him to the results that I was/am getting with an antimony only alloy.
    the heat and water dropped antimony core gives a BHN that is rather high [17-18] and would maybe be something he could look at to gain more penetration.

    I know tin was added to some cores to gain better penetration but airc that was with FMJ type ammo during ww-2.
    if he was doing it for another reason???

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy PWS's Avatar
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    Hi All, thanks for the responses.

    In addition to using SOWW and COWW cored bullets in a .35Whelen for all my hunting two years ago, I have a good bit of experience with paper patched slugs in a .45-70. The traditional way of hardening PP slugs is by adding tin so I went in that direction and also since the COWW cores in the .35 were a bit "crumbly". No matter what the alloy, PP slugs pretty much turn inside out above ~2000fps so I'd hoped that a metal jacket would hold things together a little better. It does in the sense that the bullet base remains intact but my goal (whether right or not!) is a bullet that ends up looking like the 350gr Swift at the bottom of the photo. Dunno if that's possible with a single jacket.

    Uncle Dino, I'm using a propane torch to melt and bond the cores and generally try to feather the assembly just enough to get a good melt. I've been doing the lead:tin cores out on the porch to avoid some of those nasty, corrosive fumes around my tools and my be overheating things. The Pb:Sn cores are breaking at the jacket so when I make the 30:1 slugs, I'll focus on using the minimum amount of heat to get the job done.

    I'll also do some searches on antimony and/or copper enriched alloys. A little harder than SOWW with the same level of ductility might be the ticket?

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    Boolit Buddy uncle dino's Avatar
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    Pws. I can't explain why, but when tin is in the alloy when bonding bullet.. The jacket is weakened at the top of the core...I think it has to do with bonding fluid boiling off, and tin and copper's strong affinity for each other..If you heat jacket too long, the jacket will actually dissolve around top of core.. This doesn't happen with pure lead or lead/ antimony alloys.. Weird.. D

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    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncle dino View Post
    Pws. I can't explain why, but when tin is in the alloy when bonding bullet.. The jacket is weakened at the top of the core...I think it has to do with bonding fluid boiling off, and tin and copper's strong affinity for each other..If you heat jacket too long, the jacket will actually dissolve around top of core.. This doesn't happen with pure lead or lead/ antimony alloys.. Weird.. D
    I agree with the tin causing problems.

    Also, the description of the bullet being crumbly makes me think there is some zinc in the alloy also.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy PWS's Avatar
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    So, I had a chance to try two more alloys for cores. It would have been three (per R5R's suggestion) but I don't have any antimony on hand other than unknown WW and range scrap. Instead, I did a 40lead:1tin and a copper enriched alloy. To do the copper, I filed down a section of ground wire and got it to mix by using regular zinc chloride soldering flux. Without analysis, I can't prove that the copper went into solution but the filings disappeared to somewhere. The ratio resulted in approximately 0.5% copper.

    Bonded, swaged and fired into water the same as the other tests, both these alloys clung to the jacket quite tenaciously - unlike the overly rich tin alloys. They both shed a little more weight than the pure lead cores and the final expanded diameter was slightly less.

    A quick synopsis is:

    Pure lead core - weight retention around 95%, expansion around 1"
    40:1 - 85%, .8"
    0.5%cu - 85%, .8"
    20:1 - 70%, .6"
    12:1 - 75%, .7"

    These numbers really could use more samples as there is quite a bit of overlap between individuals, some retaining more or less and likewise with expansion.

    At this point, I'm not sure alloy alone is the answer, especially considering the likelihood of various impact velocities, but I'll try a few more options before giving up.

  14. #14
    Boolit Man
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    Hi PWS
    This i how i make my hunting bullets for my .425 Westley Richards.
    For cores i mix 1000 grams pure lead with 500 grams clip on wheel weights, these are then bonded to the jacket using a propane torch and corbins bonding agent.
    I use military 7,62 brass for jackets as they are atleast 0.1mm thicker then the commercial brass i have so far measured and not so brittle.
    The finished bullet is a round nose weighing 375 grains (cal .435), loaded to a V0 of 720 M/S this bullet penetrates about 55cm wet news papper and retains around 85% of its weight and mushrooms to 22mm. I have shoot 9 moose so far with this bullet and only recoverd one and that was from a angled shoot at a big bull moose, entered between the two last ribs on his right side and was found against the skin on his right shoulder. I also had to take a going away shoot on a already wounded moose calf (field dressed about 85kg) shoot clean through from end to end. So i know they will penetrate more then 1meter of moose.
    I hope this was some what helpful and understandable
    Regards
    Math

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check