Any pet 6.5 Japanese loads?

[rayg]

I am about to start cast loading for the 6.5 Jap. Thanks to Dennis E. I will be getting a lyman 266469 mould.

I have the following powders on hand and would appreciate if anyone can share with me some loads they have used sucessfully with any of these powders. I think most of these powders can be ulitized in the 6.5. Ray

I-4198
I-4227
I-4895
I-3031
Unique

[bruce drake]

8-10grs of Unique will get you into a safe ballpark. It also depends on what you are using. Are you using the Hornady labelled brass or are your reforming 35 Remington case or cutting down and necking up 220 Swift cases. Each have their drawbacks and strengths.

35 Rem cases are short in the neck and sometimes crumple as you reform them. 220 Swift cases need to be cut down and them necked up. I haven't shot the Hornady brass yet to consider them.

I found that the 35 Remington cases had less internal volume but didn't bulge as much when fireforming the case. My 220 Swift refits like to bulge a bit above the case head when shooting full power jacketed loads.

Bruce

[rayg]

Thanks Bruce, I'm using Norma and Gafts brass. I've been reloading with jacketed bullets for awhile already.

I have a couple manuals but only the CB Lyman Handbook shows any 6.5 Jap cast loadings. And I thought the loads they suggest are a bit hot with the powders I have thats why I was hoping someone had a little experience and/or a pet load for me to try.

Maybe someone could list some of the loads listed in one of their reloading manuals for me. I would appreciate that as it would give me a better idea of what load to start out with.

I will give that Unique load a try Bruce. Ray

[Mike Venturino]

Ray: Can you talk a little about your 6.5mm Jap. jacketed bullet loads. I've been shooting a couple Type 38s without much success in the accuracy department and I cannot figure out why.

Mike Venturino

[waksupi]

Mike, just as a suggestion, have you slugged your bore? Some barrels are a bit generous in thier dimensions. The British Enfield comes immediately to mind. The jacketed bullets you have, may just be rattling down the bore.

[Mike Venturino]

Waksupi: Actually I haven't slugged those two rifle barrels, but perhaps I should.

The reason I haven't is that the only jacketed bullet diameter I can get is .264." By the way these rifles don't do so great either with new Hornady and Norma factory loads. I'm not too deep into this project but its sure got me scratching my head.

I also have a Type 38 6.5 carbine but I haven't included it in this yet. Also got some cast bullets loaded but haven't tried them yet either.

MLV

[45 2.1]

Might I suggest a load that has shot well from the Lyman manual for the 6.5 Jap. The 266469 at the as cast diameter in front of 26 gr. of IMR4895 which is a reported accuracy load at 1858 fps. This load has shot to the sights in the rifles and produces very good accuracy when the as cast boolit is at least 0.267". Boolits cast of WW and air cooled with soft lube and hornady gas checks.

[onceabull]

MIke V. :: FWIW,Hornady's website shows a .268 160 gr.rn. they label it for the 6.5 Carcano,but maybe worth a looksee... Onceabull

[Mike Venturino]

Onceabull: Thanks. That one had passed me by. I had hoped to duplicate Japanese military ballistics with the 140 grain bullets but I'm about ready to try anything with these rifles.

MLV

[rayg]

Mike the jacketed bullets I used were the cheap repacked bullets from midway, I think they were only $10-12 a hundred. They were 140 gr and ahead of 28-29 grs of I-3031. I Just wanted them for "plinking" and non serious target shooting. They didn't do too bad as here's an 8 shot group at 50 yr groups with the cheap bullets. In fact they probably would have shot better but I had trouble focusing on the tip of the inverted "V" front sight with my old eyes, Ray

[junkbug]

Mike, and all;

Buffalo Arms sells jacketed .268" 140 gr pointed soft points. I used these in a few Carcano Carbines before Grafs started selling the Hornady .268" bullet. I have read some dire warnings about using this bullet (the Hornady .268" 160 gr roundnose) with only full strength recommended reloads in the Carcano, since this bullet was designed with an unusually thick jacket to withstand deep Carcano rifling and the gain twist. Never heard anything like that about the Buffalo Arms 140gr .268" pointed SPs. I will be soon be buying some for use in a really worn Dutch M-95 6.5mm KNIL carbine.

Here is a link that has reloading info on the 6.5mm Carcano. The warning about the Hornady .268" bullets may also pertain to trying to use it in the 6.5mm Japanese. The warning is near the end of the article.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~glibera...ano/emary.html

As for me, I have only used the Hornady bullet in my Carcano, with full power loads. However, the only Carcano I have left, a M91-24TS carbine, hates any bullet over 120 grains, since the barrel was cut in the arsenal conversion, and the fastest portion of the gain twist was lost.

When I buy more jacketed bullets, both for the Carcano and KNIL carbines, it will be these.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,867.html

Hope this helps.

I liked your article in "Handloader" about surplus rifle loads, Mike. It was the first time in a long while I bought any gun magazine off the shelf at a convienience store. Thanks.

Sean

[bruce drake]

Mike,

I've got to follow the curve of advice on slugging your barrel. I've got two Type 38 and two Type 99 Arisakas. Each barrel has their own interior diameter for optimum accuracy (.266, .267, .312, .315) with cast bullets. I also found one of my Type 38s had an ugly swelling about 3 inches from the end of the barrel that let the slug slide down pretty easy (that rifle was cut back and recrowned shortly afterwards - now its my best Arisaka for shooting accuracy.

I've followed your recent articles as well. You might consider using Hornady's 140gr A-Match bullets for your next test. They don't have the roundnose profile of the original MilSurp but I used this bullet with some IMR4895 and 220 Swift Reformed Brass on a 100yard Walk and Paste 50 round NRA Highpower Match and shot a 432-5x (- out of 500pts) over the open sights and a cracked stock that I had to pin back together with brass pins and Brownell Glass-bed Epoxy. I'd bet that if I put a Lyman Receiver sight on the rifle when I get back from this current deployment that the scores may even go higher.

Bruce

[Mike Venturino]

Thanks to all for the responses. Dave Gullo of Buffalo Arms is a friend but I never thought of checking there for 6.5mm bullets. I will do so tomorrow.

One of my 6.5s isn't actually a Type 38. Its a Type 97, which is just a Type 38 mounted with a scope to make a sniper rifle. It just ought to shoot better with jacketed than it has so far. I wasn't aware of these larger .268" size jacketed bullets so had tried nothing but the .264" ones.

Once I get them shooting reliably with jacketed then I can proceed on to those cast loads ready and setting in the corner.

Incidentally my two 7.7s - a Type 99 and a take down paratroop version both shoot just fine.

Thanks again.
MLV

[Shooter6br]

I find my 6.5 Jap fired brass bulges just forward the base of case True with Norma brass and Swift formed brass. It is the nature of the beast . Rick

[bruce drake]

Mike,

Please slug that barrel first. what is the condition of the stock? Is it cracked near the recoil lug? That can cause inconsistencies as well.

I just don't like the idea of you putting a .268 jacketed slug down that 97's tube until you determine it's actual condition. My 38 with its bulged end slung them every which way until I fixed the barrel and bedded the action. If the slug says it's .268-.269, than by all means call Dave and get those bullets. Type 97s are rare enough (and so are you - I hear there is only one of your model) that losing one or bulging it's barrel near the chamber will be expensive.

Than again, Chris at Pac-Nor barrels has offered to thread me an Arisaka barrel before on one of his blanks.......

Bruce

Rayg, sorry to hi-jack the thread. I hope those light Unique loads are what you need to start with. They are light plinkers but good for fireforming and general 50 yard taps at targets.

[Mike Venturino]

Bruce: I just came in from both slugging those two 6.5s and shooting them again. The results are interesting. The Type 38 is .266". The Type 97 is .263". I just shot them with 140 grain Hornady factory loads made for Graf & Son, 139 grain Norma (older stuff) and 158 grain Norma RN (brand new).

Both rifles shot the new 158 grain Norma loads very nicely - compared to what I have gotten from them previously. The five shot 100 yard groups were 2 5/8" for the T38 and 3.00" for the T97.

I only had enough of the 140 Hornady's to shoot a three shot group from each rifle. Both were 3.00"

Then with the older 139 grain Norma stuff and back to five shot groups the T38 did 4 1/2" and the T97 did 2 3/4". (One flyer made the T38 group that big. Four were under 3.00"

I'm going to pull a bullet from each of the Norma loads and mike them in a few minutes.

What's been the problem with my handloads? Well I think I now have a good clue. The brass was once fired when I started with it and I full length sized it so it would chamber in everything. Bad move! This morning when I began processing it again about one third of it showed signs of incipient head separations, and some showed gas leakage.

Here's what I think. These Japanese chambers are generous (VERY) and my Redding dies are probably cut to minimum specs. I'm going to take my newly fired Norma brass and only size it enough to go back in BOTH rifles, and then see where my handloads go. In my opinion nothing will shoot great with that much excess headspace.

By the way, all screws are tight and no cracks in the stocks except the Type 38 has a small crack in the handguard.

And as Bruce says, I don't mean to hijack anyone's thread. Maybe some of this well help some other 6.5mm Jap. shooters.

And Bruce, I wish you safety over there!
Mike V.

[45 2.1]

Undersize brass is common in the commercial varieties. Good strong cases can be made from 308 Military brass if you have a way to turned the solid case head portion down to fit your actual chamber.

[bruce drake]

Mike,

Got your PM and thanks for the call of support. I'd love to keep the conversation going on E-mail side as well.

I'm glad you got a potential answer to your questions. The Arisakas are a great rifle once you get to know them a little bit. Your groups would be within the black scoring rings of a 100-yard reduced highpower target. The black is 5" across on those targets. More than accurate for the minute of man (most military-aged men are 18-24" across in the chest) that these rifles were asked to fire into when they were designed.

To find you have a tight bore on the 97 is a plus as long as it isn't heavy copper fouling. The 38 series rifle barrels weren't chrome-lined like the 99s and you may be dealing with some copper crud issues as well. Some of these rifles are close to 80 years old.

My other type 38 (the original condition one) has an oblong chamber and it's he!! on the full-length sized brass . If you want to save the brass as much as you can, I'd advise segregating your brass for each rifle and neck-sizing as much as possible with the brass. I do it for all my rifles so that the brass that I've had to create from other calibers isn't expended too soon. And buying Hornady or Norma specific brass more than once or twice a year will get expensive quickly.

I've never swaged down the 308 cases or lathe-turned them so I can't talk about that. I've read about and seen some cases made that way. Others can talk about that with more authority than I.

I fireform the 220 Swift and 35 Rem cases with scotch tape around the base to help form the cases without major bulges. I know an Arisaka shooter that slips a thin brass collar over the cartridge when he fireforms. The case expands around the collar further strengthening the base of the case and creating the typical Arisaka semi-rimmed apperance. That is a lot more work than I use but his cases last a lot longer than mine.

Don't consider it as hijacking the thread but as filler for Rayg to complete his experiment with the Unique loads and getting back to us on a shooting report. In the meantime, Rayg gets some more information on his Arisaka as well.

Bruce

[rayg]

No problem on highjacking. The more info the better also it keeps the thread going attracting more imput and knowledge on the subject, Ray

[Mike Venturino]

Here's a little follow up on my 6.5mm loading. I pulled the bullets from both Norma factory loads and both were .263"

After that I took the 40 odd once fired cases left to me and sized them only enough to chamber again in BOTH rifles. That meant that about 1/2 the neck was sized. They were loaded with Speer 140 grain flat base, Sierra 140 grain boat tail, and Nosler 140 grain HPBT match bullets with Varget, and H4350. (Varget only with the Speer 140 grain flat base)

Varget groups were miserable - six to eight inches with both rifles. H4350 wasn't too bad. Three to four inch groups with both rifles, especially with the Nosler 140 grain HPBT. It may seem odd to shoot expensive match bullets in such rifles but I'm just trying to establish some accuracy "credentials" for them for when I move on to cast bullets.

I've cleaned both rifles but not to the point of pure cleanliness - meaning some patches still come out green. I'm afraid to completely de-copper them as a friend did that once with a .22-250 and found he had no barrel left at all! Still I intend to work on it more.

As for neck sizing only and keeping a batch of brass for each rifle, I just can't do that. Right now I'm reloading for over 150 guns in at least 50 different calibers. I just don't have room to store brass sorted for individuals. I'd rather buy more as it wears out. I'm going to keep record of these 40 odd, now twice fired cases that have been minimum resized and see how long they last.

And that's my report on the 6.5mm JAP. as of this morning.
Mike V.