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Thread: CVA Hunter in 44 Magnum

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by newton View Post
    .

    I still don't know how the factory rounds will fix the action poping open after a shot.
    that is a big concern!!!! what loads are you using?

  2. #82
    Yeah. I just looked at one of these at the store again. This is a very standard issue break action. There has to be something wrong to make it pop open. Loads that aren't over max being the issue makes no sense.

  3. #83
    Boolit Master
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    I have to say that CVA is being totally up front with you. From the mfg point of view hand loads tell NOTHING. They have no idea how well you do the loading or what condition your bullets and cases are in. Or even how you really control the amount of powder, which primers you really use, etc, etc. They are trying to help you. Let them. Clean the gun well. Go out and buy a box of factory 300gn ammo and fire it from a sandbag rest (as stated in their email). Take a picture of your target. Include the box and lot number of the ammo you fire (I'd even send them the rest of the cartridges from the box).

    If it is still messed up then they will give you an RMA and they will shoot the rifle to see if they can duplicate your problem.

  4. #84
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    Newton
    Some of your loads were at the upper limits and in post #24 you stated ending up "well above any published data" and I respectfully wonder if that rifle wasn't subjected to some pretty high pressure? Would that explain the action popping open?

  5. #85
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    Yeah... I'd be more than a little concerned about the action opening up for sure!

    The only time I have ever had that happen was with an H&R .58 cal. muzzleloader I accidentally double charged. It didn't hurt the gun but it did break open that one time and it did hurt my shoulder! That was a massive overload in my case so no wonder the gun opened up. If you don't know, the H&R Huntsman was an early "in-line" muzzleloader built on a single shot shotgun frame.

  6. #86
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hodges View Post
    I am concerned with your action opening. I have the Scout2 and two Wolf muzzle loaders (they have the same action as the Hunter). Neither of them are loose side to side nor have they demonstrated any tendency to open up on their own upon firing. My 44 mag 240 XTP load is very near max of WW296 and it has never tried to open itself upon firing. That should not be happening.
    That's good to know. I did not think that the side to side movement was right. Just to be clear about it, I find the action is open after I fire. Most of the time its just a little. It's not like it is blowing open and bleeding gasses backward. Best I can tell, its most likely a result of the bullet leaving the barrel kind of recoil. Otherwise, there would be significant gasses being blown back.

    At first, I thought the latch might be being pressed by the front bag, but its definitely not.


    Quote Originally Posted by 500Linebaughbuck View Post
    that is a big concern!!!! what loads are you using?
    I would call them upper end but below max. I at one time went above what Lyman listed in their cast manual book with IMR4227. But they also were seating their boolits much deeper than I am. I have been loading under and up to max using Hodgdon's data for a 325 grain BTB LFN GC boolit using W296. I did exceed their IMR4227 max one time, but it was just a velocity/pressure sign test I was doing. Literally one shot to see what was going on. I did not have any pressure signs with that load, but did not like the idea of dancing over the line.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wagnerwerks View Post
    Yeah. I just looked at one of these at the store again. This is a very standard issue break action. There has to be something wrong to make it pop open. Loads that aren't over max being the issue makes no sense.
    This is my thought, but I am trying to be optimistic. lol

    I think the action will open when I try the factory rounds. But at the same time I get that for all they know I am some dumb backwoods drug addict that has no idea about loading but stole some equipment and decided to try - and now blame them for an inferior product.......

  7. #87
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    I have to say that CVA is being totally up front with you. From the mfg point of view hand loads tell NOTHING. They have no idea how well you do the loading or what condition your bullets and cases are in. Or even how you really control the amount of powder, which primers you really use, etc, etc. They are trying to help you. Let them. Clean the gun well. Go out and buy a box of factory 300gn ammo and fire it from a sandbag rest (as stated in their email). Take a picture of your target. Include the box and lot number of the ammo you fire (I'd even send them the rest of the cartridges from the box).

    If it is still messed up then they will give you an RMA and they will shoot the rifle to see if they can duplicate your problem.
    I couldnt agree more. This is exactly my thoughts and what I plan to do. I just had one of those stupid moments last Friday and could not understand why they would not just see things my way - but then realized its impossible for them to since they are not at my house.

  8. #88
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doghawg View Post
    Newton
    Some of your loads were at the upper limits and in post #24 you stated ending up "well above any published data" and I respectfully wonder if that rifle wasn't subjected to some pretty high pressure? Would that explain the action popping open?
    Yes. The only published data for the Lee 310 with IMR4227 is the Lyman cast manual. I do not have it in front of me, but I want to say they max out around 19grains?

    I went up to 22 grains, in half grain increments, shooting single shots over a chronograph. When I reached that 22 grain mark I did not go any higher, but that was the first time I did have the action pop open.

    So it is probable that the rifle was subjected to higher than the SAAMI spec, but not on a repetitive basis, and likely not too much over the spec. I am not trying to make excuses because I really did think about that maybe being a cause. But when you think about things logically, a few rounds that go a few thousand PSI over max should not permenantly cause harm to a firearm. If that is the case, then it is a very weak action. I am pretty sure they proof guns to a much higher level.

    I could see if I had gone over max using a fast pistol powder. Those things act very erratically. But I was using the very slow end of powders for this cartridge.

  9. #89
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    Yeah... I'd be more than a little concerned about the action opening up for sure!

    The only time I have ever had that happen was with an H&R .58 cal. muzzleloader I accidentally double charged. It didn't hurt the gun but it did break open that one time and it did hurt my shoulder! That was a massive overload in my case so no wonder the gun opened up. If you don't know, the H&R Huntsman was an early "in-line" muzzleloader built on a single shot shotgun frame.
    Interesting for sure. When it popped open that first time, even though I did not have any other pressure signs, I figured that my testing was done at that level. But as it started doing it more and more - that's when it became anoying. At one point I realized that some oil had worked its way onto the locking mechanism. After I thouroughly took it apart, cleaned everything, it happened much less.

    I'll try to get a picture of the locking points. They seem to look normal to me? I have only worked with a few other single shot Rossi guns before.

  10. #90
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    My Lyman manual shows loads up to 300 gr. cast for the 44 mag with 4227...starting load 16.5 max 19gr. That is a total spread of 2.5gr. You loaded 3 grains over that with a heavier boolit? That would be a massive overload.
    Do what CVA asks and let them look it over.

  11. #91
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hodges View Post
    My Lyman manual shows loads up to 300 gr. cast for the 44 mag with 4227...starting load 16.5 max 19gr. That is a total spread of 2.5gr. You loaded 3 grains over that with a heavier boolit? That would be a massive overload.
    Do what CVA asks and let them look it over.
    Right. I do not have the manual in front of me right now, but I am pretty sure that their COAL is much shorter than what I was using. Having a longer COAL significantly reduces pressures in this caliber versus a smaller caliber.

    I am also pretty sure you will find that they recommend a much lower max charge for H110/W296 than what most people use, on a regular/repeated basis, for the 300 grain cast. That is not to say I think we should just throw loading manuals out the window and not pay attention to them - I'm just stating that common sense is a must when it comes to handloading.

    I know that the Lyman manual is a good book to go off of, but its not the only source of information out there and is only specific to what they used - what they used exactly.

    I use the Lyman cast bullet manual more than any other source 90% of the time, but this time I used multiple sources of information and worked up the loads using time-tested procedures.

    The single load - single load - that I went over 3 grains(according to the specific data in the Lyman cast manual, not other manuals) did not produce ANY pressure signs. I did not go any higher simply because I did not want to and I was already compressing the load.

    So to say it was a "massive overload" is simply speculation. I could be wrong on the points about what your Lyman manual states. I will take a picture of mine when I get home tonight and post it here. I just remember finding a lot of discrepancy in what they recommend vs what powder companies recommend the max being, besides what a lot of people use for charges.

    One nice thing about the 44 magnums is that it is pretty popular so there is a lot of tried and true data to research from.

    Here is some data I pulled from Hodgdons site -

    Hodgdon 325gr - 4227.pdf

    As you can see, they are showing a 325 grain cast boolit with a charge of 4227 over 2 grains more than the Lyman manual. I went 1 more grain more than that, with a lighter boolit. I am more than positive that while I might have been a little over pressure I was not massively over pressure.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master OlDeuce's Avatar
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    Wow.........How is your CVA grouping with those tall charges ????? Ol Deuce
    Do the Best with What you have !

  13. #93
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    I wonder if the locking lug is fully engaging? Not exactly sure what the CVA system is like but other break action single shots I've seen tend to use a "door latch" type of lug with a taper/wedge shape locking into a lug below the barrel.

    If that movable "latch" isn't fully engaging then it may be slipping of the fixed lug under the barrel without a lot of recoil.

    Can you check it to see if it is not fully engaging? Maybe some burrs or something?

    There has to be a good reason the gun is opening up at recoil and those actions are so simple it should be fairly obvious what is wrong.

    Just kinda thinking out loud... in type that is.

    Longbow

  14. #94
    That's the style they are.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlDeuce View Post
    Wow.........How is your CVA grouping with those tall charges ????? Ol Deuce
    It groups the best when I am at near max. When I try the low level stuff it does not like it at all.

    I had a few boolits hand picked and decided to try the Lyman charge of 19 grains. It made a 4” group at 100 yards. Tried the 21 grain charge I have come to see groups the best, and it made a nice sub 2” group with 3 shots, but when I tapped on the side of the action before one shot it was 2” further outside of the group. This testing was done today. I hope to get the factory ammo tomorrow.

    Needless to say, with over 200 rounds down the tube I can confidently say it likes the boolits pushed hard. But it still seems that the movement in the action might be the weakness. The testing today was at 100 yards.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I wonder if the locking lug is fully engaging? Not exactly sure what the CVA system is like but other break action single shots I've seen tend to use a "door latch" type of lug with a taper/wedge shape locking into a lug below the barrel.

    If that movable "latch" isn't fully engaging then it may be slipping of the fixed lug under the barrel without a lot of recoil.

    Can you check it to see if it is not fully engaging? Maybe some burrs or something?

    There has to be a good reason the gun is opening up at recoil and those actions are so simple it should be fairly obvious what is wrong.

    Just kinda thinking out loud... in type that is.

    Longbow
    I’ll try to get a picture of it. Interesting thing today was it never opened when I shot. I wiped my finger across the barrrl lug after each shot to make sure it was clean, and I open/closed it very forcefully a couple times before shooting.

    I read a lot about the Handi rifles today, because not much info is online dealing with the cva. They all talked about a firm closure and making sure the surfaces were dry. It will be interesting to see if this trend continues. I’ll keep it up with the factory ammo just to rule things out.

    Honestly, I’m almost just tired. I hate to give up, and I have not completely yet, but if someone made me an offer I couldn’t refuse I’d just assume get rid of the gun. I wanted it for a deer woods gun, and at this point I’m not feeling very confident in it considering it is so temperamental.

  17. #97
    Boolit Master dougader's Avatar
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    Just for the heck of it, buy the cheapest box of factory ammo at a local shop and see how it goes.... white box Winchester 240 grain or whatever. You're still puttering about and haven't yet done what the makers of the weapon have suggested.

    I mean, what if the factory stuff shoots sub MOA, then what? If it doesn't, ship it in to be looked over by the techs at CVA.

    Do the simple thing first.

    Oh, another thought though... is your scope still firmly attached? No moving about? I had that happen on a soft shooting Ruger 10/22 once.

  18. #98
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougader View Post
    Just for the heck of it, buy the cheapest box of factory ammo at a local shop and see how it goes.... white box Winchester 240 grain or whatever. You're still puttering about and haven't yet done what the makers of the weapon have suggested.

    I mean, what if the factory stuff shoots sub MOA, then what? If it doesn't, ship it in to be looked over by the techs at CVA.

    Do the simple thing first.

    Oh, another thought though... is your scope still firmly attached? No moving about? I had that happen on a soft shooting Ruger 10/22 once.
    I'm actually going to be trying the Hornady Custom ammo with 300 grain XTP - that is what CVA specifically said to try, not just any ammo, and specifically not 240 grain. They did say that some guns might like the 240 grain, but that they specifically chamber their guns for the 300 grain xtp. I'm not puttering about it, just have not been able to get by the store to pick it up and have the time to shoot it. I have a full time job, it allows me on here a lot, but not the freedom to go shoot my guns unfortunately.

    The only reason I get to shoot the other stuff is because I have it at home already, so when I get off work and only have a little bit of daylight left I run a few rounds through it.

    The scope is rock solid. I have zero doubts about it being the issue.

    I know its hard to convey what a gun is exactly like over the internet - I am not always the best at using the right words - but after reading up on the Handi rifles yesterday I know that the movement in my gun is not ok. Its a issue that happens with break actions and its a significant cause of inaccuracy. It is said that a .001" ammount of movement will present itself with up to 1" of shot impact movement. I know I have more play than that, I just do not know how to measure it.

  19. #99
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    I took a picture of the Lee data from the Lyman manual.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    They are seating out further than what I first thought. I am out just a little more than that, about 5-7 thousandths. But when you look at their max charge of W296 is, you see that 90% of people use 1 grain or more - on a regular basis. I tried 19 grains last night and it was not anywhere near good. I know I have tried it in the past, but I just had to one more time.



    Here is the picture of the gun's latch and shelf. Just in case you all are wondering, the gun is coated in eezox. I picked it up to shoot yesterday and it was rusting pretty good. I know that it happens with these types of guns, and its cosmetic, but I figured letting it sit with some oil on it for a day or so might help. Needless to say, if someone is a stickler about surface rust on a gun you will have to be very OCD about the steel on this gun. But I digress, I just wanted to point that out in case someone was to say "look, there is your problem, you have oil over everything". I will do a thourough cleaning of it before I go to shoot again.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last, but not least of interest to me, is how much soot I am beginning to see on my brass after the shot. It has not always been like this, seems to be getting progressively worse. I am not sure what to make of it. These brass cases were shot with 21 grains of W296.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I've had soot on cases before, but usually its a sign of low pressure. Once I start bumping up the charge the soot goes away. I have shot quite a few rounds now with that 21 grain charge, and in the beginning there was no soot visible - and now there is a significant ammount. Is this something people have seen before?

  20. #100

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check