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Thread: NOE expander plugs: problem and solution

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    NOE expander plugs: problem and solution

    I just had a minor breakthrough in reloading 9mm, and I thought my experience might benefit others. I realize that this will be old news to many of you, but here goes.

    For months now I have been using expander plugs made by NOE Bullet Molds. For those who don't know, these plugs do the same thing that the Lyman M die does, but you use them with the Lee Universal Case Expanding Die. Anyway, these plugs solved my PC shaving problem, but created another problem for my 9mm loads, namely bulged cases. What I mean is that using them caused a very pronounced ring-shaped bulge in the middle of the case. I want to make it clear that this happened during the EXPANDING stage, NOT while seating the bullets. Using the Lee FCD removes most of the bulge, but some of it remains, and in extreme cases this will cause chambering issues.

    After poking around on the Internet for a while, I discovered that some people were experiencing the same problem when using the Lyman M die. The problem arises from the fact that the brass walls of 9mm cases are a uniform thickness until you get about .220" down (by my rough measurement), at which point they get progressively thicker toward the base. You can clearly see this if you put calipers on the brass at the mouth of the case and then move them downward--it's easy going for almost 1/4", at which point you will suddenly encounter resistance. I was aware that 9mm cases are tapered, but I didn't realize this fact about wall thickness until yesterday.

    The solution is to shorten the tip of the plug so that it doesn't hit the thicker part of the wall. A lathe (or an enormous drill chuck) would be handy, but I managed to do it using a bench grinder and a hand file. I put the plug back in the Lee die and voila--no more bulging! Another benefit is that my OAL is much more consistent. My brass is range pick-up, and I found that different brands would bulge different amounts. I would seat the bullets and then use the Lee FCD to iron out the bulge, which would increase the OAL by different amounts depending on the severity of the bulge.

    As a side note, I've ordered a number of these plugs from NOE. If you look at the pistol plugs on their website, most of the sizes they offer have a long reach for the first stage, including all the sizes that are most useful for 9mm. I bought one that I use for .380 Auto that has a short reach, but I now realize that even that is a bit too long. .380 brass is straight-wall, but according to my calipers it exhibits the same wall thickening that I found with 9mm. My .380 brass also bulges, but not nearly as much as the 9mm did. Looks like I'll be firing up the bench grinder again....

    Also, using a micrometer I found that the NOE plugs never measure exactly the same as the nominal dimensions. You can buy several of the same size and find up to .005" variation. I have one plug that measures about .003" small on the first stage and .003" large on the second stage. On the one hand this is bad, but on the other hand it can allow you to do some fine tuning if you have a large enough collection.

    So, I just thought I would throw this out there in case anyone is having a similar issue. If it turns out I'm the last person on the planet to figure this out, please go easy on me!

    John

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
    Shiloh's Avatar
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    As stated in your second to last paragraph. They can be tuned. I love them.

    Shiloh
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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    And they aren't expensive, either. I'm a big fan of "not expensive"!

  4. #4
    Banned

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    if your modifying NOE's tools for a specific reason I would let AL know about it.
    he is super responsive to customers needs and would probably re-make the tool or offer an alternative tool.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I have looked at these plugs but how do you integrate in a Dillon 550B?
    Leadmelter
    MI

  6. #6
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    you either size and prime with one tool head then switch in a second with the M-die in station one.
    or put it in station 3 and seat in 4 and crimp on a single stage.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    A cut-a-way of 2 types of 9mm cases. 1 has the "step" built into it. and the other is a standard 9mm case. As jmac2112 stated, standard 9mm cases get thicker/supported in the web area of the case.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Longer expanders are for longer bodied bullets/larger diameter bullets. They expand deeper into the case to protect the bullets base from being swaged down.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    NEO makes a fantastic expander and jmac2112 did an excellent job of doing mods to refine NEO's product. I ended up making a simple expander for the 9mm on a lathe.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The custom expander I made does the same thing as the m-die expander pictured above or the NOE expander. I did measure the cases as jmac2112 did to know how long to make the custom expander. The end result is .358" bullets loaded into 9mm cases without any wasp-waist look or bulges in the cases from over expansion.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Unfortunately there's only so much room/length in a 9mm case before it starts getting thicker. Those hollow based 35870 bullets (red) pictured above shoot lights out in the 9mm. They also push the envelope of the seating depth/expander/difference in the webs of the different case mfg's/design changes in the cases from the same mfg's. When those long bodied 35870's are seated in cases were the web is thicker/longer than other cases I get fliers from the bullet's base being swaged down. a 10-shot group with fliers/50yd line
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Expanding the cases any deeper causes the "bulges" jmac2112 posted about in his opening thread. Perhaps he could post some pictures of the bulges so others can see/identify them.

  8. #8
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    tomme boy's Avatar
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    I use the Lee 38 S&W expander and it does the exact same thing. I have never seen ANY bulged cases.

  9. #9
    Boolit Mold
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    I got a set of the NOE powder through expander plugs for lee powder dies and found the same thing, they had to be shortened up to not cause excessive mid case bulging. This was true in 9 and .40 cal, but once I had them cut down they are fantastic when loading cast boolits.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy Quiettime's Avatar
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    Yes 9mm brass varies quite a lot in thickness. This causes a few issues when loading it especially with cast boolits and most especially when they are sized correctly for most 9mm guns.

    If you can segregate your brass it will help.

    Also note that a slight case bulge or "wasp waist " cam help keep your boolits from setback when they are chambered from the magazine
    And just for your info... casting with a single cavity is about as close as you can get to zero production, while still having some production. -- Whitespider

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    I ran into this problem a while ago. The bulge was sometimes big enough to prevent chambering when I used the larger dia bullets. I found a way to create the step pictured above. I have a old Redding case trimmer that uses a collet type head and you spin the case. This allows you to get the case running very true. To make the step I use a S drill (.348 dia.).I run it into the case to a a depth determined to be correct while turning the case. Some cases need almost nothing.Some I have are a lot of work because they are very thick. I still use a large dia expander that is long enough to do the job for even the longer cast bullets. Little to no bulge now. I have fired these stepped cases a few times with no problems.
    n.h.schmidt

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check