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Thread: Those Pesky Flyers, if you get them

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Those Pesky Flyers, if you get them

    I never really heard what I felt was an answer to those beautiful tight groups with perfect(by my standard) boolits and after a perfect shot----O NO, its a inch and a half out side of this other wise tight group. I could lie to my self and try convince myself I pulled the shot but then I won't be able to sleep as a liar I was becoming! No, I just hang my head and think of all the older guys and their always perfect tight groups when they shoot. Recently I was reading a jacketed bullet shooter fellow who shoots 800 yard consistantly and he spoke of flyers when a bullet doesn't have tension they leave the group. Now, what is tension to a cast boolit shooter?
    Look twice, shoot once.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    First, and you won't believe me, study statistics. In a large enough group it is statistically certain you will have fliers. Second, there have to be at least a dozen reasons for fliers, from my breathing to the internal ballistics of each round to the external ballistics of each round to my style. Do I hold the gun exactly the same each time? Is each boolit a perfect example or does it have internal voids? Or do all the boolits have exactly the same internal void in exactly the same place? Is the neck tension exactly the same in all my brass? Is the internal capacity of all my brass exactly the same? Is there precisely no variation in the ignition and burning of the powder in every shot in the group? Am I shooting indoors in an windless environment? I could go on, but I think you get the point.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Smith View Post
    First, and you won't believe me, study statistics. In a large enough group it is statistically certain you will have fliers. Second, there have to be at least a dozen reasons for fliers, from my breathing to the internal ballistics of each round to the external ballistics of each round to my style. Do I hold the gun exactly the same each time? Is each boolit a perfect example or does it have internal voids? Or do all the boolits have exactly the same internal void in exactly the same place? Is the neck tension exactly the same in all my brass? Is the internal capacity of all my brass exactly the same? Is there precisely no variation in the ignition and burning of the powder in every shot in the group? Am I shooting indoors in an windless environment? I could go on, but I think you get the point.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I agree with Wayne. As Casters, Swagers, and Reloaders we individually define and control the Quality of the product we produce. The above graph is a representation often used to describe the Six Sigma process ( a study that can be as simple as reading a brief article - or a Life Long pursuit). On the Bell curve back in the 1970's, the breadth of my bell curve was huge for casting and reloading; but the variance statistically was the same shape. Today, I am far more tuned to shrinking this base as small as possible. The way to accomplish this is addressing every one of the Small details (cleaning of dross, alloy composition, temp cast, culling, weighing, ........ and brass consistency screening, trimming, tension, ......., and shooting posture, trigger control, breath control, and.....

    By following all of the techniques you know and read about, one can reduce the width of that Bell Curve achieving ever greater degrees of accuracy; but there will always be outliers in any statistical group of large enough sampling (let's call this the 10 shot group as our sample). These outliers (removing the awww s*** factor) are what defines the level of Quality (Six Sigma) you are achieving. to further reduce the outliers, you have to continue applying stronger and stronger control processes in your Production, Loading, and Shooting regimen. Perfection (100% Same Hole) is never achievable, only reducing the variance - and doing so becomes more and more difficult as you strive to shrink groups smaller and smaller.

    This essay will do nothing to remove your outliers, but it does explain your question of "Why do I get Fliers?". You are the deciding factor of when "Good Enough" is achieved, this setting your Six Sigma control factors.
    Mustang

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  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    My problem with fliers stems from the trigger connector.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master NoAngel's Avatar
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    It happens. The only thing that bugs me are the losers who claim they or their rifle is capable of XXX level of accuracy because they discount the fliers. These people are pathetic liars.
    I own my fliers and never discount them from any grouping just so I can have better numbers.
    When dealing with islam one should always ask themselves: "What would Leonidas do?"

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I am totally in line with Noangel. Don't tell me what you can hit, tell me what you can't miss. That bughole, unicorn group that you shot is not representative, it is a fluke.

    Back when the 17 HMR hit town, I knew a fellow who carried a nice 5 shot 3/4 in group who swore that his marlin was a super shooter in consequence. In the three years I knew him, I never saw him shoot a group to approach that, much less to equal it. I have a Star Modelo Super, in 9mm Largo. It shoots 4-5" groups at 25 yards on the average. But once, it shot the best 5 shot group I have managed with a center fire pistol in the last 20 years. 3 shots touching and the other two barely an inch out. That one group did not suddenly reflect the real capabilities of that gun. The scores of other, much larger groups did.

    One of anything proves nothing. Jesus rose from the dead, but it has not, to date, been the statistical average.
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  7. #7
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    man there are so many things that can cause flyers.
    neck tension, ignition, a void, the gas check, your body position, lube purging, you can have a whole group of flyers that just happen to be close to each other.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master


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    Are your "groups" of sufficient size (number of shots) that actually are representative of the real accuracy (cone of fire) of the load/rifle/you combination?

    Many times a 3 or even 5 shot "group" will form in a smaller area of the actual cone of fire. That is, of course, assuming you have eliminated of control many if not all the variables runfiverun mentions.
    Larry Gibson

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  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    If I wasn't so lazy and weighed my boolits I would eliminate a lot of my fliers. Generally they fall within 2" of the main group so I don't worry too much about them.
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  10. #10
    Boolit Man
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    What kind of rig,and what kind of rest?

    Big difference shooting a lever action off a truck hood vs a purpose built BR rifle on a 700$+ full tilt bench "rest".

    How serious are you?What and how far are you willing to go to.... reduce "fliers"?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    If I muck up and call a flyer then I don't count it as in the group.
    I seemed to have found so many reasons..well...excuses for flyers that I'm starting to believe that it is all devine intervention that a bullet can even be made to hit in the same general direction...counting on all the variables I can think of and have heard.
    Hell..the more time I spend learning stuff the worser the outcome should be!

  12. #12
    Boolit Master


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    You will get more flyers with cast bullets due to factors that do not exist with jacketed bullets.

    A flyer with a good jacketed bullet may be 1/2 MOA out of the group. With cast it will be greater. Just more variables at work.

    Many are caused by the shooter. Poor technique or excitement/stress. If you are consistently shooting sub MOA with good jacketed bullets, you can discount this as a cause.

    In my case, I know my cast bullet fliers are due to poor bullets. I cannot (or will not invest the time to) make cast bullets shoot as well as a jacketed bullet. So I use jacketed bullets for hunting. I could use even my “poor” cast bullets to hunt with if I keep ranges under 150 yards, but why do that when I can take a 400 yard shot if I need to? Some people enjoy the journey, some the destination. You can produce good cast bullets but it is not easy. And this may be blasphemy, but you will never achieve the accuracy of a quality jacketed bullet.
    Last edited by dverna; 12-15-2017 at 08:53 AM.
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  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I found that flyers stayed closer (went away) when i only lubed the bottom two grooves on my bullets, 8mm as well as 416 and 45, all rifle.

    The barrel can be to slippery.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

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    A couple of reasons that I have found that cause flyers are:

    1. A missed condition. A change in the wind that the shooter did not catch.
    2. A bullet not seated straight in the case. This differs between types of rifles. A benchrest rifle may notice a runout of .001 while a hunting rifle may take .003-.005 to notice a flyer.

    This is my experience with jacketed bullets. With cast bullets, a flaw in the bullet can cause flyers. Some flaws are hard to see.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master NoAngel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 17nut View Post
    I found that flyers stayed closer (went away) when i only lubed the bottom two grooves on my bullets, 8mm as well as 416 and 45, all rifle.

    The barrel can be to slippery.
    I never believed that until I used the exact same load, bullet and everything with the only difference being powder coat and no lube. Groups shrank enormously.
    I was pleasantly surprised cause I hate riding the lube sizer anyway.
    When dealing with islam one should always ask themselves: "What would Leonidas do?"

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 17nut View Post
    I found that flyers stayed closer (went away) when i only lubed the bottom two grooves on my bullets, 8mm as well as 416 and 45, all rifle.

    The barrel can be to slippery.
    True. That is where lube purging comes into the picture. Less can be more.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  17. #17
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by jaysouth View Post
    My problem with fliers stems from the trigger connector.
    Mine comes from the loose nut behind the but.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by rintinglen View Post
    I am totally in line with Noangel. Don't tell me what you can hit, tell me what you can't miss. That bughole, unicorn group that you shot is not representative, it is a fluke.

    Back when the 17 HMR hit town, I knew a fellow who carried a nice 5 shot 3/4 in group who swore that his marlin was a super shooter in consequence. In the three years I knew him, I never saw him shoot a group to approach that, much less to equal it. I have a Star Modelo Super, in 9mm Largo. It shoots 4-5" groups at 25 yards on the average. But once, it shot the best 5 shot group I have managed with a center fire pistol in the last 20 years. 3 shots touching and the other two barely an inch out. That one group did not suddenly reflect the real capabilities of that gun. The scores of other, much larger groups did.

    One of anything proves nothing. Jesus rose from the dead, but it has not, to date, been the statistical average.
    Finally someone with a grasp on things
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  19. #19
    Boolit Man
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    I keep seeing those nice clover leaf groups of 3-5 shot groups but as many pointed out I dont think thats a true representation of your guns abilities. I shoot groups of 10 or 12 for revolvers but I want to see my fliers if there are any. I dont care about perfect groups I want to see that guns (and ammo) true abilities along with any flaws.

    This whole thing remind me of those youtube trick shot videos. If you do enough takes it will eventually go in. Same theory applies here. If I shoot enough 3-5 groups I'll eventually get a clover leaf. Try to do that with 10 shots and see how that goes

  20. #20
    Boolit Master fredj338's Avatar
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    Reason for flyers will vary with the platform. Rifle, pistol or revolver. It is usually the shooter, but variations in neck tension, all platforms, can certainly throw a flyer. In revo, it is often one cyl that has a tight throat. Sometimes with rifle it is the bbl getting weird as it heats up. Problem with 10 shot groups is the shooter has more chances to toss the flyer.
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check