Cracking the code on the Savage 220?

[Buttonbuck]

I got a chance to swap a pistol for a savage 220 for the kids. It came with 2 boxes of accutips. Wondering if anyone found something beyond the holy trinity of factory ammo (Remington, Hornady, and federal) to fly right. It seems a dead end where I looked. I like reloading but homemade past 100 seem difficult.

[Hogtamer]

Here you go. aka "Uncle Dino" on this site. A real innovator and great guy. I've killed five hogs and a deer with the 20 ga. 3/4 oz lead slug with plastic base, 2 of the hogs in one shot out of my 220. A true 100 yd slug for the 220, not bad at 150 either. Give Dennis a call.
http://www.furycustombullets.com/web.../shotgun-slugs

[megasupermagnum]

Wow, all this time you guys mentioned Uncle Dino, I figured you were talking some custom runs or something. I had no idea you could buy them.

[OBCoal]

Try the Sabot Pressure Wad http://slugsrus.com/ they shoot very well and are affordable.

[Buttonbuck]

Seems like a good option worth investigating. You all say they are good out to 150 yards?

[Hogtamer]

I have the Nikon bdc scope and sighted in with the 3/4 oz slug at 100 yds using the crosshairs I used the 3 rd ring down at 150, so there, a lot of drop going on. This was moving at about 1700 fps mv using Lil Gun. At 70 yds I killed the spotted hog (shot a little high) and the smaller hog in the throat That I didn't see.

[Blood Trail]

I second Uncle D’s creations. Also, I’m a fan of the SlugsRus sabots and the Gualdo Steel segmented slugs out of the 220. Both are easy to handload.


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[GooseGestapo]

WARNING, UNPUBLISHED DATA, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. START WITH PUBLISHED DATA!!!

UncleD's looks interesting, but he's still pricey imo.

Anybody know what the shank diameter of the slug is?

I've been working with the Lyman 350gr sabot slug that uses shotgun wads.
I started last year with my buddies 220, using just a ClayBuster AA wad over 20.0gr of LongShot in a AA hull. These shoot well at 50yds, about like store-bought rifled foster-style slugs.
Buddy killed a 140lb antlerless buck at about 70yds. Works "ok".

This fall I snagged a used 220 off gunbroker. For a base comparison, I bought some Hornady 260gr Sabot slugs, and Federal 7/8oz lead sabot slugs.
The Hornady were very disappointing. Accuracy at 50yds is WORSE than regular rifled-slugs. The Federal are significantly better. About 3" at 100yds.
This has become my "standard" for accuracy going foward in working up my own.

Analyzing discarded wads, and shooting 50yd groups, it was obvious the wads were imbedding in the hollow base of the slug. I tried filling the base with a filler, which slightly helped, but due to slug going trans sonic about 75yds, accuracy was inadequate at 100yds. Slugs were yawing and groups at about 10". Tried some Federal "Pushion cushion" wads, no luck. Not as good as CB wad.

So, after a bit of brain storming, looking at factory sabots, I realized I need two things; one, a shorter sabot, and, shorter wad column to allow more room for powder.

I accomplished this by cutting the shot cup from the CB wad, and cutting the gas seal and cushion from the Remington RP wad.
Trying several powder charges, faster was better. Went high enough I started getting pierced primers, then backed off. Accuracy was improved but still needed improvement. The problem of sabot base intrusion to the skirt of the slug persisted, and a filler was causing its own problems with uneven compression and dispersion destabilizing the slug.
My final solution was to replace the filler with a spacer wad between the gas seal/cushion and sabot. I'm using a modified 5/8" cutter to cut wads from corregated cardboard.

Final product is now getting 1,400fps, and 3-3.5" 5-shot groups at 100yds.

Cost analysis:
Primers. .045
Wads. .05
Powder. .10. LongShot at $29lb, 24.0gr = 290rds/lb.
So, neglecting cost of hulls, mold, wad cutter, casting scrap lead slugs, I'm at about twenty cents a shot.
Works for me.

P.s. Point of impact is identical at 100yds with Federal factory sabot slugs.
I've gotten two deer with the Federals, will try now with mine.... will report and post photos.
Btw, have ordered a Lee .58cal REAL mold.
Savage has a "winner" with the 220.

[Blood Trail]

WARNING, UNPUBLISHED DATA, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. START WITH PUBLISHED DATA!!!

UncleD's looks interesting, but he's still pricey imo.

Anybody know what the shank diameter of the slug is?

I've been working with the Lyman 350gr sabot slug that uses shotgun wads.
I started last year with my buddies 220, using just a ClayBuster AA wad over 20.0gr of LongShot in a AA hull. These shoot well at 50yds, about like store-bought rifled foster-style slugs.
Buddy killed a 140lb antlerless buck at about 70yds. Works "ok".

This fall I snagged a used 220 off gunbroker. For a base comparison, I bought some Hornady 260gr Sabot slugs, and Federal 7/8oz lead sabot slugs.
The Hornady were very disappointing. Accuracy at 50yds is WORSE than regular rifled-slugs. The Federal are significantly better. About 3" at 100yds.
This has become my "standard" for accuracy going foward in working up my own.

Analyzing discarded wads, and shooting 50yd groups, it was obvious the wads were imbedding in the hollow base of the slug. I tried filling the base with a filler, which slightly helped, but due to slug going trans sonic about 75yds, accuracy was inadequate at 100yds. Slugs were yawing and groups at about 10". Tried some Federal "Pushion cushion" wads, no luck. Not as good as CB wad.

So, after a bit of brain storming, looking at factory sabots, I realized I need two things; one, a shorter sabot, and, shorter wad column to allow more room for powder.

I accomplished this by cutting the shot cup from the CB wad, and cutting the gas seal and cushion from the Remington RP wad.
Trying several powder charges, faster was better. Went high enough I started getting pierced primers, then backed off. Accuracy was improved but still needed improvement. The problem of sabot base intrusion to the skirt of the slug persisted, and a filler was causing its own problems with uneven compression and dispersion destabilizing the slug.
My final solution was to replace the filler with a spacer wad between the gas seal/cushion and sabot. I'm using a modified 5/8" cutter to cut wads from corregated cardboard.

Final product is now getting 1,400fps, and 3-3.5" 5-shot groups at 100yds.

Cost analysis:
Primers. .045
Wads. .05
Powder. .10. LongShot at $29lb, 24.0gr = 290rds/lb.
So, neglecting cost of hulls, mold, wad cutter, casting scrap lead slugs, I'm at about twenty cents a shot.
Works for me.

P.s. Point of impact is identical at 100yds with Federal factory sabot slugs.
I've gotten two deer with the Federals, will try now with mine.... will report and post photos.
Btw, have ordered a Lee .58cal REAL mold.
Savage has a "winner" with the 220.

I tried the same concept with my 220. Accuracy was eh....








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[GooseGestapo]

BT;

I see a number of differences.
1. The slug, though similar, has significant differences. Yours lacks the small "rib" or crush ring around the perimeter of the foward and rear bearing surfaces the Lyman has.
2. I used a plastic gas seal/cushion wad over powder. (RP-20 wad with petals removed).
3. Hulls used. I tried Fiocchi and Federal Game load hulls. Got similar results to yours.
With Winchester HD (new style) or compression formed Universal hulls, I get better gas seal, and better accuracy.
It's amazing how such small differences in components make such large differences in performance.
You roll crimping?
I'm fold crimping.

[Buttonbuck]

I hear getting slugs right out to 100-150 yards is more challenging than center fire rounds. In terms where I hunt Illinois is a slug, pistol, muzzleloader state I like to shoot and want to shoot well. I love that there are so many creative solutions.

[megasupermagnum]

I hear getting slugs right out to 100-150 yards is more challenging than center fire rounds.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean. You certainly won't be shooting MOA at 150 yards like you can with a rifle. I have yet to have my own home cast slugs to be accurate that far, but I've had luck reloading some store bought slugs, some better than factory loaded ammo. I've had very good luck with Gulandi slugs, which you can buy from Ballistic Products. I liked the LBC sabot, and if I remember correctly, I got around 2.5" groups at 100 yards. At 150 I was getting less than 4" groups. I tried at 200, and while the groups were not bad, they drop around 36", even with a MV of 1940 fps. I did notice one thing, Taofledermaus on Youtube has been shooting these with fliers. He has high speed footage of the tail wad falling off. I personally have not noticed this, and I think it has to do with seating pressure. I always use my MEC to seat slugs, usually at 100#. I noticed that I can sometimes feel the slug seat further on the stem, which could be the cause of the problems Taofledermaus had. He has a video where he loads them, and does not use any seating pressure.

In short, you can get reloaded slugs to be accurate at 150 yards, but they won't fly at flat as the store bought magnums. It looks like BPI has brought back their sabot for .50 bullets, but I've never heard anything good accuracy wise about them. With those LBC slugs loaded to 1940 FPS, sighted in 2.5" high at 50 yards, was about 6" low at 150. Not bad in my opinion. Those factory slugs never fly as flat as they say on the box either. Some guys have claimed close to 1" accuracy at 100 yards, but I have yet to achieve that, even with factory ammo.

[Blood Trail]

Some guys have claimed close to 1" accuracy at 100 yards, but I have yet to achieve that, even with factory ammo.

Ive gotten 1-2” 100 yard groups with a couple of reloads, one being Some of Uncle D’s full bore slugs.



These where about 8 shots at 100 yards. Hammerhead slugs:





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[megasupermagnum]

I think that second picture is a good representation of what can be achieved by most people. That looks about a 3" group, and while some individual groups might be tighter or wider, I think that is a very good average.

[Hogtamer]

when you consider the diameter of the projectiles involved that is the shotgun equivalent of moa! 2 holes touching is greater than one inch.

[Blood Trail]

when you consider the diameter of the projectiles involved that is the shotgun equivalent of moa! 2 holes touching is greater than one inch.

Wouldn’t you measure the longest distant between the holes and subtract the diameter of the slug?

For instance, wouldn’t this be MOA?


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[Hogtamer]

I think that quantifies it nicely.

[megasupermagnum]

When I talk groups, it's always center to center from the farthest holes. I do as was said, measure the outside of the farthest holes, and subtract the diameter. By the looks of it, that "Group E" is about .9" CTC. It's not an average, just a single 3-shot group. Not to downplay it, .9" is fantastic even for my 6mm Remington! I've never come that close with a slug gun myself, but clearly the guns can do it. It seems to take way more testing/shooting to achieve than the average man can muster, but 4" at 150 yards is not impossible, and plenty accurate enough for deer.

[Hogtamer]

Here are my observations after shooting many slug round of various sorts at paper as well as animals the last 4 years......I am a relatively mediocre shot anymore. Others I follow who shoot who have posted various slug loads shoot better groups than I do, Blood Trail for one. Many of us have duplicated others loads with the same slugs and my groups consistently are not as tight. Given the same loads I take comfort that my loads are simply better than I am. So for my purposes let's say I am shooting at a 1" orange disc at 100 yds. One shot is 3" left. One is 3" right. A couple more are similarly spaced high and low and maybe one on the money. If that is the best I can do so be it. No shot being more than 3" either way from aim point with the size and power of these loads is fatal 100% of the time on a game animal, assuming my aim point is center of lungs. Now I don't have a fancy shooting set-up, most of the time I'm on pillows off the hood of the truck or an old lead sled off a rickety bench, but never have a perfectly stable platform in the woods either. At near 65 yrs old nothing about the old body is perfectly stable anymore either! So if I post a "group" of 6" center to center at 100 yds you can be confident it's an accurate load. BT and Uncle Dino consistently shoot the same loads much tighter. With better scopes and stable platforms I can still shoot pretty good groups with lower recoil rifles, as I have produced 1 1/2" groups at 300 yds with my .270 and 130 gr ballistic tip bullets over 48 gr of IMR 4064 so I ain't dead yet. Also killed a bunch of animals the last couple of years with loads developed on this site with no loss. My point is consider the shooter when assessing a posted target and what kind of weapons/optics he's shooting. What we're doing here is pretty rare air with shotguns, even our fellows in other forums on this site are skeptical about the possibilities of our lowly weapons!

[Buttonbuck]

With all my shooting goals I don't think I could achieve all them in 5 lifetimes. I'd love to do 3 gun, woods walks with flintlocks, go back to longbows while doing 3 d shoots etc. IN my state Illinois we can shoot slugs, black powder, and pistols for firearms. I think getting options for slug shooters beyond just shooting a box or 2 a year of high priced sabots is the best use of my limited time. The end goal is to cast for the black powder guns, pistols, pistol caliber rifles and slug guns. Most important stay focused and have fun. I'll be selling some past projects to clear space and fund this project. Thanks again BB