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Thread: 45 colt 300gr+ standard pressure loads?

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    45 colt 300gr+ standard pressure loads?

    Hi,

    First off I'm a long time lurker but this is my first post. If this subject has been written about before I apologize but I haven't come across it yet.

    I just recently acquired a new rossi 92 in 45 colt with a 16" barrel. I had the idea of possibly threading it for a suppressor and was curious about heavy bullet sub-sonic loads for it. I would like to shoot 300gr or bigger bullets through it but have run into a problem... All of the information i have found regarding heavy bullets were for ruger only loads that leave a carbine barrel faster than 1500fps. Most all of these loads have used powders like h110 that can't be loaded less than 90% case capacity. Any time a heavy bullet is mentioned in an article the author states they see no reason to load any slower.

    With that said I currently have universal, blue dot, and trail boss powder to work with. I wouldn't mind picking something up along the lines of 2400 or h4227 if i needed to. If i were to pick up premade cast bullets the beartooth 330gr wfnpb would probably be my first choice. Where would i start to get 1050fps out of a 16" barrel? Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Sierra or Speer had some standard pressure loads for 45 colt with those bullets, Hodgden might have too. I don't have my books with me on this trip. Lee has a fair amount of loads in his book but cannot remember if they went heavier that the Lyman 270gr. Look up Brian Pierce from handloader magazine he might have some of his pages on the web. Todd/3leg
    I had a stainless 16" Puma in 45 Colt, my favorite loads were a 200gr RNFP at 1100fps and the Lee 255gr RNFP at 1400fps. I sold it cause it had an oversized chamber.
    Last edited by 3leggedturtle; 12-12-2017 at 07:59 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Mold
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    Thank you Todd for some ideas on where to look! I have read a few of Brain Pierce's articles and have come to the conclusion that he is obsessed with the rcbs 270-saa lol. I have looked on hodgdens website but the only 300gr option in the standard section was for a speer(i believe) 300gr jsp. I would prefer to have data for a cast bullet to go off of just to eliminate that variable. Also, the standard pressure statement is a loose guideline, i know the rifle can handle quite a lot of pressure but mainly stated "standard" to keep someone from thinking i was looking for the high end data. I would like to add a pistol into the equation soon, so i think i would like to keep pressures in the <21000psi range to keep my options open.

    I'm sorry to hear the chamber was loose on your rifle. It sounds like a pretty common issue for these rossi's, i hope mine isn't too far out of spec. I know a little higher pressure keeps blowback down with the oversize chamber. I was thinking if my chamber was a little too far out of line I might look into having my sizing die opened up a bit to match... I think that would cut down on the blowby and make life a little easier on the brass..

    Did you ever chronograph loads out of your rifle? I'm curious as to how much velocity is actually increased over the pistol data. Thanks!

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    I believe part of the issue is that these long boolits like speed to stabilize properly. You really really don't want a baffle strike with a 300gr boolit. You should do some testing to determine if the load you want to use is stable before shooting them through a can.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    http://reloadammo.com/45cload.htm
    Use the jacket bullet loads - they are below SAMMI pressure the 45 Colt
    Regards
    John

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    Moonie, yes baffle strikes are definitely a concern and if I end up buying a suppressor I'll have 6 months worth of wait time to do some testing. I have run numbers through the berger stability calculator. According to it i can run a bullet up to .915" as slow as 750fps and still be at thier recommended 1.5 for a stable bullet, however I don't know how a wfn bullet compares to a rifle bullet the calculator is designed for. I would imagine that the length and weight of the bullet and the twist of the barrel are the only figures that truly matter... If anyone has any information on the contrary please correct me. I want to learn as much as i possibly can.


    John Boy, thanks for the link. It looks like their universal load is the same as what hodgdon lists on their website for the 300gr jsp. I would probably end up starting from there.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I had the 255 going almost 1600fps, but backed it down to 1400. The 200 I ran from 900-1500, the load at 1100fps was the most consistent accuracy wise at 100 yards. Was sweet and mild load. These were all chronoed using HS7 powder. my 4 5/8 Blackhawk was brutal with the top loads and the black plastic checkered grips. With the 255 in it, I know I stopped when it was going 900fps.
    Last edited by 3leggedturtle; 12-13-2017 at 07:45 PM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    In my opinion and based on my personal experience you will have better luck using standard weight (255gr) bullet with standard pressure loads. Heavier bullet need faster twist and more speed for good results. Wont know until you try though

    Thanks
    Mike

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Hodgdons has STANDARD (meaning STANDARD PRESSURE and not high pressure. STANDARD which is within SAAMI specs for the LOW pressures safe in a Colt SAA) pressure data for the 300 Sierra. That is a hard bullet for much higher velocity.
    Should do well,with the flat nose it has. Most 45 Colts have a 1-16 twist and should stabilize the bullet.
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 12-15-2017 at 11:08 AM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Mold
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    44mag#1, I mentioned being aware of that hodgdons data above. The trouble with that is the jsp is a different bullet design from that of a wfn cast bullet, and i have no dimensions for the sierra in regards to bullet oal and the distance from the meplat to the cannellure to reference. Without that information i feel that it would be irresponsible of me to use that data to load a wfn without knowing how much volume of the case is being dispaced. With that said, it is a 13k psi load being chambered in a gun that can handle 40k+ psi so there is a large margin for error. Fast pistol powders do strange things in large volume cases though...

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDecho View Post
    44mag#1, I mentioned being aware of that hodgdons data above. The trouble with that is the jsp is a different bullet design from that of a wfn cast bullet, and i have no dimensions for the sierra in regards to bullet oal and the distance from the meplat to the cannellure to reference. Without that information i feel that it would be irresponsible of me to use that data to load a wfn without knowing how much volume of the case is being dispaced. With that said, it is a 13k psi load being chambered in a gun that can handle 40k+ psi so there is a large margin for error. Fast pistol powders do strange things in large volume cases though...
    Since you seem to be very knowledgeable person concerning loads I would wonder why you would even need to come on a shooting forum to ask about data. I understand doing it because of questioning oneself. I look at case capacity etc. too. Since the gun you are using is strong enough to take much more than standard loads why worry about it. Hodgdons has loads for that bullet weight, or close enough to it, for government work. Although they are higher chamber pressure. Using 2400 and dropping it down (which can be done despite some people grabbing their chest in the Fred Sanford method) and a chrono you should be able to do a good job of developing a good load yourself.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Concerning the Sierra 300 gr. Overall .808". From base to center of CG is .417" From center of CG to nose is .391"

  13. #13
    Boolit Mold
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    Thank you 44mag with all your insight. I have done a lot of research about reduced power loads for other calibers and I noticed they usually use powders the 45 colt would be reloaded with. It is part of what got me back into the caliber. I am far from an expert on the subject, I've reloaded 45 colt in the past but I never really experimented with it. From everything I've read I 'should' be able to load a subsonic 350gr bullet and the barrel twist 'should' be enough to stabilize it. However, it sounds like from others' experience that it might not. I'm curious as to why people have the stability issues with the big bullets at slower speeds. Bullet stability as I understand it is a product of the length and the rpm of the bullet in flight. I understand there are other factors. A wfn should be more stable than a swc of the same length because the weight is further forward on the bullet and the momentum of that weight moving forward should reduce the yaw of the bullet in flight. Is the turbulence created by the wide meplat what causes the problem? When a bullet transitions from supersonic to transonic to sub sonic it can also cause stability issues. Is it possible that when testing the bigger bullets slower than magnum loads they were still leaving the barrel supersonic and it was the transition that causes the instability?
    I really don't know. That's why I posted on here asking if anyone has loaded these larger bullets subsonic. There are a ton of people on this website with much more experience than I have and I was hoping to learn from their experiences.
    I really appreciate everyone's input.

  14. #14
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    Two things. First off yes there is the lack of spin at lower velocities. How much spin is needed would vary with twist rate given the same load in different guns, you will just have to try some loads in yours.

    Secondly, do not try to use fast powders with a heavy boolit, you run out of headroom REAL quick. Generally the heavier the boolit, the slower the powder. 2400 and LilGun can both be loaded to much less capacity than H110/W296.

    Other than these two pointers, it's hard to provide more info than this because using such a heavy boolit in less than magnum loads is fairly pointless and so you won't find much if any published load data for these recipes. It goes without saying that if you can't find a heavy boolit load for a powder such as Unique, then by it's absence, it is not recommended. Either unsafe, or impractical or both.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Let me say this about that. I know in a 45 Colt Ruger RedHawk with a 4.2 inch barrel a 410 to 415 gr bullet will stabilize well slightly under 1000 fps. One is a LFN and the other is a WLN LBT GC bullets. I've done it.
    A 350 should have no problem being stabilized at a lesser velocity. On the use of a fast (relative term) in large cases. Most will still give a wide velocity variation is the powder is in the front or the back of the case even with a heavy for caliber bullet. The saving grace of a revolver is when the cylinder rotates is will have a tendency to level out the powder of something to that effect to help keep velocity consistent.
    Now before someone thinks Im crazy just do the test. Developed a load with say Red Dot, or a similar powder that people thinks will be consistent due to the fact that the faster powders SUPPOSE to be consistent and try the front and back test. Most on here will be surprised.
    There is a gentleman on here occasionally that has a Red Dot load for a 325 grain 45 Colt thereabouts that is a good load accuracy wise but will still give the Wild velocity shots. I know I have tried the load and as long as the powder is near the same place in the case it is okay.
    2400 will do the same thing but not as bad as some due to the volumn it has at somewhat reduced loads. I don't use magnum primers with fast powders or 2400. No point in it.
    Oh BTW, Hodgdons does list fast powders for the 44 Mag with a 300 gr Hornady. So there you go.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    One other factor in your planning is the question of whether or not your rifle will feed the longer, heavier boolit in a Rossi .45 Colt, of which I have 2 that have shot a couple thousand rounds each in SASS matches. The Lee 300 grain RNF boolit crimped in the top crimping groove functions and shoots well in both with a load about 10% less than what Hogdon lists as the max load of HC110. That load shoots well out to about 115 yards which is all the range I have available to me. I have had no reason or desire to try that load at subsonic velocities, and it may not be stable at that speed, but at least it runs through the action. GF

  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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    Yes, whether or not I can get the bullet to feed is a whole nother ballgame! It seems like the oal of the cartridge is what hangs up the Rossis, and I'm not looking to cram as much powder as i can in the case so crimping on the forward groove is not an issue.
    Why would loading the larger bullet subsonic be pointless or useless? For one, the larger bullet has a better bc. If you run the data through a ballistics calculator you would see that the larger bullet at 1050fps sighted at 100 yards hits 3" high at 50. You only have 115 yards available.... All that extra velocity isn't giving you a flatter trajectory, at least not enough to justify burning more powder and having heavier recoil. According to beartooth bullets article regarding meplat diameters and killing power the velocity won't make a significantly bigger hole in game either.
    On the other hand going from a 250gr swc to a 300+ wfn at 1050fps you will gain sectional density, mass, and make a larger diameter hole. Higher sectional density increases penetration, it improves bullet tracking through your target as well. Mass gives you more energy at the target. 50gr more mass is 20% more energy... Thats significant.

    I don't expect to be shooting more than 100-150 yards. There is absolutely no advantage to magnum type velocity at that distance.
    I strongly disagree that just because no one has load data for it means its dangerous or impractical. There are two types of loads for the 45 colt, replica cowboy loads and magnum "its bigger than a 44 mag" loads. There is a huge and useful area in between these two. No one does it because a) they are shooting cowboy action or want to recreate the experience of a traditional sixgun or b) cuz they want the biggest baddest performance they can squeeze out of there bisley vaquero
    Last edited by BDecho; 12-18-2017 at 06:17 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    Oh BTW, Hodgdons does list fast powders for the 44 Mag with a 300 gr Hornady. So there you go.
    Not for 45 Colt, which is what OP posted about..

    Quote Originally Posted by BDecho View Post
    I don't expect to be shooting more than 100-150 yards.
    Subsonic, 300gr boolit, 100+ yards? All in the same load? It's becoming quite obvious that there is a distinct lack of real experience pertaining to this subject. You go on out there and set up some targets and load up some with whatever powder you decide to go with, and come back and post some photos of the results okay?
    Last edited by DougGuy; 12-18-2017 at 10:32 PM.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Dougguy said,
    "Not for 45 Colt, which is what OP posted about",
    You are correct as you usually are but you also said ina post that: ". It goes without saying that if you can't find a heavy boolit load for a powder such as Unique, then by it's absence, it is not recommended. Either unsafe, or impractical or both."

    I was showing that there are some fast powder load for heavy bullets. The way you stated it it sounded like you meant no fast powder loads for heavy bullets.
    I am not dumb. I know what caliber he was talking about. I was making a point as so many on here do occasionally.
    BTW Hodgdons lists a Titegroup load for a 300 gr jacketed in the high pressure loads for the 45 Colt.
    BTW again if you look at page 440 in the Lyman 49th loading book you will see fast powders listed for a 325 gr cast. One of them is a Red Dot load.
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 12-18-2017 at 10:55 PM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy nockhunter's Avatar
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    I would try Blue Dot, or Unique, both have been loaded in reduced rifle loads for years. You will be loading these long bullets shorter to cycle in the M92 so available space is reduced somewhat. This should take care of any problems associated with the"large volume/fast powder" combo. I use Blue Dot in my 480 Ruger SBH with the Lee 400g at 950-1000fps.

    Mike

    P.S. I don't give specific load info.

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