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Thread: Good all around powder for cast, 30 cals

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy Gunfreak25's Avatar
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    Good all around powder for cast, 30 cals

    I currently load 7.65 Argie, 303 Brit, 8x56r and 6.5 Swedish. I cast for them all.

    I am always looking to simplify my bench. Searching for a versatile powder that works well with reduced cast and is not position sensitive. I don't like fillers.

    I am between H4350 and any of the slower Reloader powders ie, 17, 19, 22.

    Opinions?

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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    None of the slower powders are very good choices for cast. Because cast offers less resistance than jacketed, and therefore moves more quickly down the barrel, and because it is easier to get good accuracy with cast at lower velocities (sub 2,000 ft per second), the properties that make slower powders ideal for jacketed loads do lend them to cast. There are those who claim to be pushing @ 30 cal cast boolits in the 2,000 fps - 2,500 fps with accuracy, and to get those velocities, a slow powder may be required.

    Versatile powders that work well with cast for all the cartridges that you mention include Aliant 2400, IMR4227, IMR4895, and H4198/IMR4198.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Gf25, Probably the best CB/reduced load powder* I have used was 5744, but it's pricey and sometimes difficult to find. SR 4759 is also highly touted, but I've never been able to find it locally + I think it has been discontinued. Other choices would be H/IMR 4198 and VV N 133.


    *Meters well, burns clean, low ES's & SD's in my .243Win. -> .45-70.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPRNY View Post
    None of the slower powders are very good choices for cast. Because cast offers less resistance than jacketed, and therefore moves more quickly down the barrel, and because it is easier to get good accuracy with cast at lower velocities (sub 2,000 ft per second), the properties that make slower powders ideal for jacketed loads do lend them to cast. There are those who claim to be pushing @ 30 cal cast boolits in the 2,000 fps - 2,500 fps with accuracy, and to get those velocities, a slow powder may be required.

    Versatile powders that work well with cast for all the cartridges that you mention include Aliant 2400, IMR4227, IMR4895, and H4198/IMR4198.
    I don't agree with you on the slow powders. I just tested RL 22 in my 1909 Argentine in 7.65 for Gunfreak27 with a 215 grain bullet and it was in the velocity range you typed and had good accuracy.

    You have to have enough bullet weight for the slow powder to burn efficiently. It's not necessarily the friction, but the bullet weight that is the key to success. That and a crimp help those slow powders. Now with the very light bullets slow powder doesn't do as well. Also being an overbore caliber helps slow powder burn better too.

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
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    Red dot. Not a slow powder but surely is a player for reduced loads.

  6. #6
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    Reloader-7.


    your not going to find a perfect covers everything powder.
    the fast shot gun powders are too limited on velocity and spike pressure too quickly.

    2400 is position sensitive, and is too hard to ignite at the lower levels.
    everyone is scared of H-110.

    the medium burn rate rifle powders need a filler to avoid ignition inconsistencies.
    [velocity variations]

    the medium slow powders are too touchy and unreliable at lowered amounts.
    the slower ones provide too much velocity or burn real dirty until you get up into the 50-K pressure area [we ALL know this is IMPOSSIBLE too]

    now the real slow ones hold pressure down by not burning efficiently and need a booster charge to work properly but generally tend to run your lead up into the 00+ fps zone which as we all know is NOT even possible.

    so your best bet is to not even try shooting lead at all.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    If you would go to the Cast Bullet Assn. website you can find what loads the shooters are using. Look under military match results and you will see all the load data listed along with the rifles used. Lots of 2400 used, also5744,4227,4198,4759, and RL-7, a favorite of mine. Seems like all the shooters are all in the 1500- 1700 FPS range.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    Reloader-7.


    your not going to find a perfect covers everything powder.
    the fast shot gun powders are too limited on velocity and spike pressure too quickly.

    2400 is position sensitive, and is too hard to ignite at the lower levels.
    everyone is scared of H-110.

    the medium burn rate rifle powders need a filler to avoid ignition inconsistencies.
    [velocity variations]

    the medium slow powders are too touchy and unreliable at lowered amounts.
    the slower ones provide too much velocity or burn real dirty until you get up into the 50-K pressure area [we ALL know this is IMPOSSIBLE too]

    now the real slow ones hold pressure down by not burning efficiently and need a booster charge to work properly but generally tend to run your lead up into the 00+ fps zone which as we all know is NOT even possible.

    so your best bet is to not even try shooting lead at all.
    Runfiverun, what was wrong with my load of 45 grains of RL-22 giving velocity well over 2000 fps with good accuracy and no unburned powder in the bore or the case? I may agree with you that for slower velocities and lighter bullets that slow powder is not a good choice. I just loaded some 308W with RL 19 and waiting for the weather to break to go test them. Now RL 22 in the 308W case won't work, unless you use a booster such as you said.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I like Reloder7 and Accurate 5744 in the 308, 300 Savage, 303 Savage and 32 Special. bullet weights 160 to 200 grains. 200 yard groups show little/no vertical with MOA attainable unless the Wyoming wind disrupts the horizontal or the ability to hold the rifle steady. The low charge weights of 5744 do keep the per round cost equal or lower than large charges of the slow powders. Reloder 7 is one of the lower cost non-spherical non-surplus powders.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy Gunfreak25's Avatar
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    Thanks for the data guys. I went to the cast bullet association website and viewed the match results and it looks like RL7 is popular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post

    2400 is position sensitive, and is too hard to ignite at the lower levels.
    everyone is scared of H-110.
    and i quote "This is my recommendation for anybody trying cast bullets loads for the first time in a military rifle without prior load development. I say this because #2400 is not "position sensitive", requires no fiber fillers to ensure uniform ignition, and actually groups better when you stripper-clip load the rifle and bang them off, rather than tipping the muzzle up to position the powder charge. " http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Rifles-Article

    i've used 2400 in i don't know how many calibers. my last was a 444 marlin in tc encore with a 24" barrel and 280gr wfn gc with 26.0gr of 2400. it goes approx 1700+/-fps. my 45-70 uses a 405gr cast with 25.0gr of 2400. my 500 linebaugh and 44 mag uses it too. 30-30,30-40, 30-06, 38-55, 405win, 7mm-08.....

  12. #12
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    90% of my cast rifle loads are 2400 propelled.

    I thing RL-7 is a better powder and I don't have any.
    never will have any I couldn't shoot up all the powder I have on hand now.
    I'm not so sure I can shoot all the rounds I have loaded.

    2400 is position sensitive in many situations.
    it can be overcome with a primer change or just by moving the powder most times.
    I generally just switch over to AA-4100 when I see it happen.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    My two favorites for cast boolits in rifle cartridges (.30-30, .30-06, .308, 8x57, 7.65 Argie, 7.62x54R and others) are 2400 and Red Dot. Red Dot for light loads, 2400 for anything exceeding 1200-1400 fps.

  14. #14
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    I would use IMR 3031 in all the cartridges you listed.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I'm with Texas, I was amazed I got all the way to the bottom before seeing it listed.

    I am also personally a big fan of Red Dot, yeah in everything. But I don't expect it to cycle semi auto rifles. Or to be the fastest, most powerful.

    What it is, is economical, accurate, and great at punching holes in paper and ringing steel.
    YMMV.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    90% of my cast rifle loads are 2400 propelled.

    I thing RL-7 is a better powder and I don't have any.
    never will have any I couldn't shoot up all the powder I have on hand now.
    I'm not so sure I can shoot all the rounds I have loaded.

    2400 is position sensitive in many situations.
    it can be overcome with a primer change or just by moving the powder most times.
    I generally just switch over to AA-4100 when I see it happen.
    no sir, i don't see it(2400) as position sensitive. i use cci, federal and winchester primers(whatever is available) and in 35 or so years, i've never seen it happen in a bolt, single shot, pump, lever and revolver.

    i used to like rel 7 and h/imr 4198 but it hurts my shoulder after 4 or 5 shots. they must've bumped rel 7 and 4198 up. it has nothing to do with my being older!!!

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I went to the cast bullet association website and viewed the match results and it looks like RL7 is popular.
    Good move. I look the equipment lists over also.
    re: 3031 - agree. Use it exclusively for my 30 caliber reloads
    Regards
    John

  18. #18
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    Gunfreak25

    Considering you're not loading for any "30 cals" that is a pretty generalized question. The 7.65 Argie and 303 Brit are close being 31 cals but the 8mm and 6.5 are a bit off. Further problem with the question is; what kind of "load" are you using....cat's sneeze loads for garage, basement or indoor range, mid level 50 and 100 yards range or perhaps top end cast bullet loads for out to 500+ yards? Additionally you don't mention the weight of the cast bullet or whether PB or GC'd let alone the actual "30 cal" cartridge" which can vary in case capacity from the 7.62x25 (available in SA PPSH443s) upwards of the 30x378 WBY magnum. Lot's of 31 cals in there also.

    Also while I shoot CBA competition let me venture that what is used in that game, which is all benchrest shooting, may not fit into the "all around" category either depending on your expected usage.......whatever that is.

    Given all those variables plus a few more you can see why my forum friends get caught up contradicting each other. That's because given the limited criteria in your question there is no "good all around powder" for 30 cals.......what works well in one application may very well be very poor in another. No powder is going to work well in all applicable cast bullet shooting.

    Perhaps narrowing down your question with a few more specific details would avoid further confusion and be condusive to an answer that better fits your need?
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 12-13-2017 at 04:58 PM.
    Larry Gibson

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    Quote Originally Posted by 500Linebaughbuck View Post
    no sir, i don't see it(2400) as position sensitive. i use cci, federal and winchester primers(whatever is available) and in 35 or so years, i've never seen it happen in a bolt, single shot, pump, lever and revolver.

    i used to like rel 7 and h/imr 4198 but it hurts my shoulder after 4 or 5 shots. they must've bumped rel 7 and 4198 up. it has nothing to do with my being older!!!
    Let me see if I understand you correctly. You're saying 2400 is not position sensitive. Well Larry Gibson did an extensive and very well done test of 2400 with a 44 magnum and a 30-30 both shot from TC Contenders. He found it was position sensitive and his test was ditto 100% what an Alliant Techinical Service Rep told me about the different era's of 2400.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    IMR 4895 can be used in everything from .222 Remington up to 458 Winchester magnum.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check