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Thread: High end 1911's worth the price of admission?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    If you asked a dozen top shooters this question, the answer would be a resounding "Yes". If you're not a really good shooter you're wasting your money buying a high end target gun. Like being half deaf and buying the best sound system out there.....you'll never benefit from it. Very few shooters can shoot to the performance level of their gun unless the gun is a real turkey. There are enough shooters out there that take their gun to its full potential. When they go to a big shoot and know they will be competing against other shooters who can also shoot to the guns potential, they want the best gun they can afford to compete with. In the real world, 99.99% of handgun owners will NEVER compete at this level and don't need a gun of the highest quality, fit, and reliability to compete with. I believe the question is best answered by those who have a need for that kind of gun. Very few do. I know that when I competed I didn't want my gun to be the reason I didn't win. There were always other shooters there who were at my ability level. On any given day they could beat me or I could beat them. All things being equal, the gun could make the difference. I used to have a lot of really good shooters ask me if they could shoot my gun, who made it, etc. We shared info and it allowed the sport to progress. It also got harder and harder to win. I own handguns that aren't custom built, and they're good guns that fit the actual need I got them for: hunting, self defense, casual (but accurate) plinking, etc. For head to head competition at the highest levels you'll need a truly great handgun if you want a chance to win.

  2. #62
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    I have seen unaltered GI beater 1911’s rise to the level of Lloyd’s “30,000 rounds without a jam” challenge. The reason they did so was because they were feeding exactly the rounds they were designed to feed (ball) using exactly the magazines the 1911 was designed to run with (tapered lip GI magazines). The round total without a jam considerably surpassed Lloyd’s figure but it was divided between 12 range beater 1911’s shot in the basement range of the Lincoln National Guard armory back in the day.

  3. #63
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I have a Springfield Armory Mil Spec 45CP. Using the Springfield mags and some inexpensive mags I bought off eBay, it feeds anything I have tried in it. Lee H&G 68 clone, Lyman 452460, Lyman 452488, Lyman 452374, Lee 230 tc, Lee 230 rn tl, Lee 200 swc, and NOE 230 rn plus 230 fmj and Hornady xtp in any weight.
    To date I have 1 failure to fire(bad primer) and no failures to feed or eject in over 3000 rounds.
    I see no reason that won't continue.
    I normally shoot 3 inch groups with this pistol at 12-15 yards.
    Last week I asked a man who is a superb shot, to test my gun for accuracy. I gave him a mag full to acclimate to the pistol and had him shoot for best group with both fmj and a mag full of my reloads.
    With both loads he fired cloverleaf groups(under 1 inch) at 15 yards.
    While not up to the standards of a master class shooter, it does much better than what you might expect for a mil spec gun. Obviously I can't shoot the gun even to it's own capabilities, let alone the capabilities of a match grade pistol.
    My point is, I don't have any use for a 2-3 thousand dollar pistol. Buying one would not increase reliability for me or increase my accuracy to any noticeable extent.
    For master class shooters in high level competition, that high dollar pistol is probably a necessity.

  4. #64
    Boolit Master 5Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    My point is, I don't have any use for a 2-3 thousand dollar pistol. Buying one would not increase reliability for me or increase my accuracy to any noticeable extent.
    For master class shooters in high level competition, that high dollar pistol is probably a necessity.
    Not directed at you tazman, just a general reply because you brought up the point.

    The $2K-$3K (and up to $6K) pistols aren't for accuracy or reliability - they are for the guy who wants something totally refined, with all the details addressed. If all I wanted was accuracy, I'd pick up a Springfield Loaded pistol and be done. I do however like French Borders, 30LPI Checkering, Staggered Arrow Top of Slide Treatment, all machined ignition components, etc.

    The OP didn't even ask abut accuracy, and although it is a part of it, the worth of a semi or full blown custom is in the attention to detail. I kind of laugh at some of the comments - "I'd never buy a pistol that expensive", followed by the comment "I have 14 1911's and they all work great". I am sure they do, but I'd rather put all that $$ together and get what I really wanted in a pistol. For some, 14 box stock pistols is what they want, for others it is something else all together. Different strokes for different folks.

    I will have my buddy Jason build me one like this some day, on an original 70 Series...and yes, I will carry it and shoot the **** out of it.

    Last edited by ShooterAZ; 12-14-2017 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Language censor violation
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  5. #65
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    That's a slightly new take on the issue and a good point. I think I agree with you.

  6. #66
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    OP here.

    I've a few 1911's including Colt, Kimber, Sig, Springfield and Dan wesson. I've owned a Smith E series in the past. All great 1911's and all reliable and accurate. Accuracy is better with my Springfield TRP and my Dan Wesson Specialist. The TRP and Specialist are definitely a slight cut above. I've always dreamt of a Brown, Bear, Wilson, Nighthawk or similar. Had a friend offer to sell me a Nighthawk GA Precision with threaded barrel and rail. But it's a rather steep entry price. Was just curious what everyone thought without being leading in the question. I could pick up a new Baer with 1.5" guarantee for about the same money. His MSRP new was almost $4k.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5Shot View Post
    Not directed at you tazman, just a general reply because you brought up the point.

    The $2K-$3K (and up to $6K) pistols aren't for accuracy or reliability - they are for the guy who wants something totally refined, with all the details addressed. If all I wanted was accuracy, I'd pick up a Springfield Loaded pistol and be done. I do however like French Borders, 30LPI Checkering, Staggered Arrow Top of Slide Treatment, all machined ignition components, etc.

    The OP didn't even ask abut accuracy, and although it is a part of it, the worth of a semi or full blown custom is in the attention to detail. I kind of laugh at some of the comments - "I'd never buy a pistol that expensive", followed by the comment "I have 14 1911's and they all work great". I am sure they do, but I'd rather put all that $$ together and get what I really wanted in a pistol. For some, 14 box stock pistols is what they want, for others it is something else all together. Different strokes for different folks.

    I will have my buddy Jason build me one like this some day, on an original 70 Series...and yes, I will carry it and shoot the **** out of it.

    he does build very very nice pistols, learned it well from Mr Yost.

  8. #68
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    cant argue that other then to ask how many who carry 1911s consealed use ball ammo? I do agree though that a fairly loose 1911 will feed ball till the cow comes home. mix in some cast swc or hps and the cow better come home early. Most of the cheaper 1911s ive had either weren't spectacular shooters but would run well or were great shooters that I wouldn't trust my life to. Step up to 800-1000 dollar guns and you stand a good chance of getting one that does both fairly well with ammo other then ball. I kind of went through a semi snob period back 15 years ago or so. I usualy bought semi high end guns like les baers, stis, gold cup colts, gold match kimbers ect. I got a heck of a deal on a Kimber target II matte finished plain jane gun. It didn't do a thing for me so I traded it off to a buddy before I even shot it. That gun is about a 800 dollar gun today. My buddy did some load development with it and its to this day the most accurate 1911 ive ever shot. It was routine to shoot 1/2 one hole groups at 25 yards and the darned thing was dead reliable too (at least with that load the buddy worked up for it) Ive tried for years to get it back from him but he wont part with it and hes a guy that has more guns then anyone I know and probably has at least 20 1911s up to and including high dollar Browns and Baers. He will tell you flat out its the most accurate 1911 hes ever owned. I still hold out hope that someday in a period of weekness he gives in and I get it back. Thing is though at that price range your probably going to have to buy 30 of them to luck into one like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    I have seen unaltered GI beater 1911’s rise to the level of Lloyd’s “30,000 rounds without a jam” challenge. The reason they did so was because they were feeding exactly the rounds they were designed to feed (ball) using exactly the magazines the 1911 was designed to run with (tapered lip GI magazines). The round total without a jam considerably surpassed Lloyd’s figure but it was divided between 12 range beater 1911’s shot in the basement range of the Lincoln National Guard armory back in the day.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 12-15-2017 at 07:47 AM.

  9. #69
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    Lloyd,

    I will comment. All of my 1911's will flawlessly feed, shoot, and eject ANY ammunition I choose to put in my magazines. My Colt officers 1911 that I carry at times when I don't have my Glock 23 was modified to feed anything period. Having said that I still would rather carry my Glock 23 simply because it doesn't fail.

    One of the reasons I buy what I consider a better grade of 1911 is simply because they will feed an array of mixed rounds without any problems. I can't honestly say that I could feed anything other than ball to a stock 1911 and expect it to work correctly. To be blunt I simply cannot rely on a "stock 1911" to be my carry weapon. The Glock is flawless and probably always will be.

  10. #70
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    I guess part of the problem with them is what 35 rem touched on. A old REAL government 1911 will feed ammo that was designed for it (ball). Its when people start "tightening the up" to shoot one hole groups in competition and target bullets are used that a lot of the problems arise. At a 500 dollar price point its about impossible to maintain both accuracy and reliability a 100 percent of the time. At a 1000 dollars it allows the manufacturer to do a bit of hand fitting and use premium parts. At 1500 maybe a even a bit better. But it takes ALOT of hours of work on a gun to justify 3000.

    I look at a linebaugh for example. Today the 500s like I have will set you back about that. But everything on the gun is changed. Barrel, cylinders, internals are all about hand made. Even many hours are spent on the grip frame opening it up and reshaping it. many hours are even spent fitting grips to it precisely. It takes John about two weeks to do one gun and that's a standard conversion. Some take longer. All that said I bought mine when I had a lot more disposable income. Today would I buy one. Nope. I just don't have 3k to spend and bottom line is a 44 mag or 45 colt factory gun will take care of anything I can afford to hunt these days.

    I have to justify gun money these days and about the only way I could even get a new 1000 dollar 1911 would be to trade some guns off. Its got to the point in my life that Ive traded off everything I didn't like that was worth any kind of money so I'm kind of stalled. I also don't shoot competition anymore or really even handgun hunt. Most of my range time is just plinking and for that a good old black gun does just fine and does it for 5-600 bucks and can double as home protection or carry guns. Yes I still take out a 1911 occasionally but probably shoot more 9s and 38s then everything else combined these days. There fun and cheap to shoot especially with cast. It cost me a few grains of powder and a primer. To many years of sitting on a bench fine tuning loads for competition and practicing for it kind of soured me on it. I have much more fun just shooting steel. But that's just me. Some have different needs.
    Quote Originally Posted by 6bg6ga View Post
    Lloyd,

    I will comment. All of my 1911's will flawlessly feed, shoot, and eject ANY ammunition I choose to put in my magazines. My Colt officers 1911 that I carry at times when I don't have my Glock 23 was modified to feed anything period. Having said that I still would rather carry my Glock 23 simply because it doesn't fail.

    One of the reasons I buy what I consider a better grade of 1911 is simply because they will feed an array of mixed rounds without any problems. I can't honestly say that I could feed anything other than ball to a stock 1911 and expect it to work correctly. To be blunt I simply cannot rely on a "stock 1911" to be my carry weapon. The Glock is flawless and probably always will be.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master Walkingwolf's Avatar
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    My Star Super is loose as a goose, it only shoots hollow points. Because I bought so many of them years ago. BUT the barrel bushing, and the barrel are perfect when locked, much better than any match bushing. If one looks at a 1947 era military 1911, or the Spanish clones it is obvious why these military grade beaters shoot one hole groups. A bushing tight in the slide does not give, so it has to have a hole big enough the barrel can tilt, hence Glock accuracy. But when the bushing can tilt it locks on the barrel perfect every time. Do this test take a foot section of 1/2 inch pvc, cut a foot section of 3/4 pvc, notice how loose they are. Now cut a half inch section of 3/4, cock it over the 1/2 and see how tight it is.

    I am not saying that high end guns are a waste of money, but honestly when a Star proofed in 1947 can shoot one hole groups every single time, and never fail to feed for $130 something is upside down. I would not trade that Star for any of the high end 1911's. My home built 1911 comes in a close second, ALL milsurp parts except for the frame, including the magazines a whopping $400 invested.

  12. #72
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Getting a 1911 to run reliably is something of a learning curve. I got less stupid when I started paying attention. When you give it what it needs to feed reliably it will. The shootability is excellent and is why I carry one. Hitting well as soon as possible will probably carry the day.

  13. #73
    Boolit Buddy
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    I shot a les baer once. On paper free hand couldn't notice an extra 2k worth.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    I guess part of the problem with them is what 35 rem touched on. A old REAL government 1911 will feed ammo that was designed for it (ball). Its when people start "tightening the up" to shoot one hole groups in competition and target bullets are used that a lot of the problems arise. At a 500 dollar price point its about impossible to maintain both accuracy and reliability a 100 percent of the time. At a 1000 dollars it allows the manufacturer to do a bit of hand fitting and use premium parts. At 1500 maybe a even a bit better. But it takes ALOT of hours of work on a gun to justify 3000.

    I look at a linebaugh for example. Today the 500s like I have will set you back about that. But everything on the gun is changed. Barrel, cylinders, internals are all about hand made. Even many hours are spent on the grip frame opening it up and reshaping it. many hours are even spent fitting grips to it precisely. It takes John about two weeks to do one gun and that's a standard conversion. Some take longer. All that said I bought mine when I had a lot more disposable income. Today would I buy one. Nope. I just don't have 3k to spend and bottom line is a 44 mag or 45 colt factory gun will take care of anything I can afford to hunt these days.

    I have to justify gun money these days and about the only way I could even get a new 1000 dollar 1911 would be to trade some guns off. Its got to the point in my life that Ive traded off everything I didn't like that was worth any kind of money so I'm kind of stalled. I also don't shoot competition anymore or really even handgun hunt. Most of my range time is just plinking and for that a good old black gun does just fine and does it for 5-600 bucks and can double as home protection or carry guns. Yes I still take out a 1911 occasionally but probably shoot more 9s and 38s then everything else combined these days. There fun and cheap to shoot especially with cast. It cost me a few grains of powder and a primer. To many years of sitting on a bench fine tuning loads for competition and practicing for it kind of soured me on it. I have much more fun just shooting steel. But that's just me. Some have different needs.
    I've had several 3K guns in my hands. Can't say I could justify having one myself. I shoot holes in paper and if the day ever arrived that I would go hunting I have 4) 44 magnums to choose from plus a 45LC. The 45acp 1911 is a plinker along with the 357's, 9mm, and 38's I own.

  15. #75
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osteodoc08 View Post
    OP here.

    I've a few 1911's including Colt, Kimber, Sig, Springfield and Dan wesson. I've owned a Smith E series in the past. All great 1911's and all reliable and accurate. Accuracy is better with my Springfield TRP and my Dan Wesson Specialist. The TRP and Specialist are definitely a slight cut above. I've always dreamt of a Brown, Bear, Wilson, Nighthawk or similar. Had a friend offer to sell me a Nighthawk GA Precision with threaded barrel and rail. But it's a rather steep entry price. Was just curious what everyone thought without being leading in the question. I could pick up a new Baer with 1.5" guarantee for about the same money. His MSRP new was almost $4k.
    FWIW:
    High end 1911's are absolutely worth owning at least 1 in your life. That being said you'll be hard pressed to have that Nighthawk GA Precision run circles around your TPR or specialist. I'm sure the nighthawk is an extremely high end 1911. The real issue is how it's dressed. Fixed sights or a laser do nothing but take any build/quality advantage out of play.

    IMHO:
    If I was going to buy a high end 1911 it would be setup to take advantage of build quality. Namely setup with adjustable target sight, reddots,etc.

    There's a bunch of the Nighthawk GA Precision 1911's out there for sale for a reason.

  16. #76
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    High end guns are nice, if you can afford one--hey why not.
    All of these targets were shot with 100% stock guns.
    ONE is with a pellet gun, the one marked as docs is a muzzle loader.
    The 45acp is an 11 year old Springfield armory loaded with fixed sights.
    The 44 is a super red hawk off a bench.

    I might benefit from a high end gun,BUT ? how much?

    I can say I would love to have one, wish I could have one, if I could afford one
    I would have it in an instant, they are beautiful to behold.

    But do I need one to shoot better ?

    My Springfield with cheep G I mags just doesn't fail HP,s lead of any shape,
    RN,s rnfp, whatever.

    Yes more money gets you a better gun, but practice with the gun you shoot well gets you better targets.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 212gr_Mihec_Solid_Flat_Nose.JPG   200gr_HP_Mihec.JPG   44 target 3.jpg   target pics from new scope.jpg   010.jpg  

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  17. #77
    Boolit Grand Master

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    That's some nice shooting gray wolf

  18. #78
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Just when a guy posts a target that would qualify him to be helped by a really high end 1911, you find out he shot the target with a stock gun.
    I am jealous and wish I could shoot that well with any of my handguns.

  19. #79
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    Thank you, I am 76 in February, I was probably 72/73 when I shot those,
    but I'm sure in my seventies.
    I never seem to know when to stop, take the target with the red circles,
    some folks can shoot one like that, cut it out for wallet shot.
    No I have to keep going and shoot about 6 of them. I don't worry
    about missing cause I know i am very capable of missing. I brush it off cause I know every human on earth
    does it.

    That particular string was with my 44 Mag. and a bunch of different bullets and different powder. I settled on 9.4 of unique for about 1050/1100 F P S from the 7.5" S R H
    and 19 grains of 2400 for about 1300 F P S.
    But thing is the gun shot very well with whatever I fed it.

    Same with the stock Springfield shooting H&G #68, from an H&G 4 banger with tight group. 1911

    I don't think there is a magic bullet, or a magic gun, there are spiffy looking bullets,
    and beautiful well made pistols, But I do think a lot of the magic comes from behind the gun.

    Allow me to emphasis again, I have no negative feelings against expensive pistols.
    I love attention to detail, and quality workmanship.


    I apologize to you all for the thread drift.
    Last edited by gray wolf; 12-17-2017 at 12:56 PM.
    Hate is like drinking poison and hoping the other man dies.

    *Cohesiveness* *Leadership* *a common cause***

    ***In a gunfight your expected to be an active participant in your own rescue***

    The effective range of an excuse is ZERO Meters

  20. #80
    Boolit Master

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    Yes they are worth every penny. Shooting machines! Built to run and beautiful they are some are slick as glass and take the fun to a higher level.

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