45-70 load workable?

[armednfree]

I don't shoot my rifles, I train with my rifles. Getting the rifle to shoulder, on target and bullet in the air quickly. Snap shooting as it were. That takes practice to be good at, especially with a scope. Like shooting trap. I don't lead and follow through and all that **** with trap, I snap shoot it and do pretty well.

Muscle memory just like anything else. That is low power loads then building to full power nearer to the season. So a simple Trailboss load is plenty for that to start.


And I don't care to even zero the rifle for that. I don't care if I hit the target as long as all shots go together someplace on a large backer,( 3-4 feet square) .

[country gent]

For what you want Id look at IMR 4895 or Varget to start with. These should burn clean and consistently, giving low extreme spreads and standard deviations. Another that might work well is IMR 3031.
I would recommend working up to the level you want velocity and accuracy wise, and using a chronograph if possible. It is seldom you get what the manual gives for velocity from your rifle and loads due to different throats, bore dia, barrel lengths, Lots of powder, primers, crimp, ect, ect. The chronograph narrates the story. The ES and SD numbers can be enlightening also.
I shoot a lot of 45 caliber rifles, and use Black powder loads. These loads are in the 1150-1200 fps range. Rifles are heavier than your marlin is. Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 34" barrel at 13+ lbs. A BRC Brochardt in 45-70 32" barrel at 12+ Lbs and a C Sharps Hepburn in 45-90 34" barrel and 12 1/2 lbs. The weight of these rifles does help dampen recoil but a full days match of 50-60 rds is a long day for me. I shoot to 500 yds with these rifles and loads.
I see the guys with the marlins and marlin loads at the local club, a lot use a lead sled and 25-50 lbs of lead shot on it to dampen recoil. Ive also seen a couple with cuts and bruises on eyebrows from the rifle loads combination.
One thing to keep in mind is you want the bullet either sub sonic or super sonic all the way to the target no transitions for best performance. Getting into the super sonic range may also cause increased wind age and velocity drop is more over a given range.
The load I shoot is basically the same as what eliminated millions of buffalos in the 1870s so it performance on game is well proven.
Work up your load to the performance level you desire and shoot it out to the farthest distance you plan on shooting, maybe even 100 - 200 yds farther just in case. Know what it does where and hold over needed.

[runfiverun]

the 24 with Dacron is running right near the 1700 your looking for depending on your barrel length.
I use a 435gr gas check bullet, and neither deer nor elk is an issue out past 150yds.
the flat nose and the weight does all the work I need.
I won't use something that doesn't give me 2 holes.


from your powder choices 3031 would be a good one to work with.

[EDG]

I don't shoot my rifles, I train with my rifles. Getting the rifle to shoulder, on target and bullet in the air quickly. Snap shooting as it were. That takes practice to be good at, especially with a scope. Like shooting trap. I don't lead and follow through and all that **** with trap, I snap shoot it and do pretty well.

Muscle memory just like anything else. That is low power loads then building to full power nearer to the season. So a simple Trailboss load is plenty for that to start.


And I don't care to even zero the rifle for that. I don't care if I hit the target as long as all shots go together someplace on a large backer,( 3-4 feet square) .

That is strange.

[Randy C]

Sounds like he should try out for cowboy action shooting. or 3 GUN-I thought about it but Id look like a fool, that kind of muscle memory is almost gone.
My wife's dad can snap shoot from the hip with a pistol and kill cans better than taking time to aim.

[DocSavage]

For most of my 45/70 loads I use 4227 with any weight from 400-525 gr8 cast bullets. I can find 4227 a lot easier in my neck of the woods. Second choice 5744 but that powder is getting a bit pricey .

[robg]

As a 45/70 is a pre expanded boolits it doesn't need to go very fast as it makes a big hole in most things why not buy a 458 win mag if you really want more speed and recoil ?

[armednfree]

As a 45/70 is a pre expanded boolits it doesn't need to go very fast as it makes a big hole in most things why not buy a 458 win mag if you really want more speed and recoil ?

I have considered that but research seems to say that reduced loads don't work real well. Plus the fact that the rifles are very expensive and heavy.


Now tell me about these button bullets and Trailboss. Could save some lead and still do the practice I want.

[Wayne Smith]

The collar button boolit was designed for indoor gallery practice - for the Army? I haven't played enough with mine to compare tajectories over the short ranges for which it is designed. So yes, with a little comparison research you could do your practice a lot cheaper. That's what it was designed for after all.

[Harter66]

My nickle being new to a Marlin and 45-70 . My 20" 1895 stops being fun with 415 gr 462-420 MP and 458193 right at 1750 fps and just as the 4350 cleans up , that makes it about 30-31,000 psi load and just off the bottom of the Marlin loads . The results were the same with H322 only the case was less full .

For fun I loaded some 380gr 462-420s with the HB pins and a few 458193s with 12 gr of Unique . I don't know that I'd call a 380 or 415 gr bullet at 960-980 fps a 45 Colts load but what ever , I have shot a 350 over H322 in a Colts carbine for 1240 fps but it was more than I wanted for the quest . So maybe a 950+ fps 415 is a hopped up Colts load .

Last thought .
A 535 gr NOE 460-543 is rated at a .430 BC at 1100 fps it carries 1000 ftlb past 350 yd . It's even comfortable to shoot .
At 5'9" and 225 I'm not really a little guy but those 1700 fps 415s leave me with a recoil hang over , something I've not experienced shooting 1000s of 1 1/8 oz 14-1500 fps 12 ga loads on ducks and geese .

[MostlyLeverGuns]

H322 is an excellent powder for upper end loads in the 45-70 and 444. There is some anecdotal evidence that reduced charges of H322 may not be advised. 400 grains at 1750 is not a 'mild' or 'fun' load after the first six or eight or ten. For pleasant shooting of 50 to 100 rounds - 20 grains plus/minus 4-5 grains of 2400, 4227, 5744 or Reloder 7. I have never considered recoil fun, sometimes a necessary evil. Notice that the true accuracy shooters - NRA High Power and the Long Range shooters (800-1200 plus yards) keep going to smaller cartridges that work, recoil fatigue reduces the ability to shoot well. Flinching. Over time that recoil will damage your scopes, Yes, even Leupold, Burris, and most others. I hunt with a 300 grain at 2200fps, only for elk, giving a 'flat' trajectory and useful to 350-400 yards, but I don't shoot that load for 'fun'. I match the trajectory/velocity with a 130 grain 30-30 in a similar Marlin. That IS fun and good practice.

[jonp]

The 45/70Marlin I had kicked like a demented mule. The original 45/70 blackpowder load was designed to shoot through a horse at 200 yards. That should be plenty, but it’s your shoulder. Good luck with your load development. Hodgdon has a website with loading info, if you care to go there.

They list 55 grains of H 322 as a max charge (compressed) with that weight jacketed bullet, just shy of 2000 fps. Min load is 50 grains, for 1757 fps.

I come up with about 31ft lbs of recoil. That's a pretty stiff kick in my book. Anyone care to check my math on this?

[armednfree]

I come up with about 31ft lbs of recoil. That's a pretty stiff kick in my book. Anyone care to check my math on this?

No need, just say it will slap the piss out of you then slap you for pissin'

[jonp]

No need, just say it will slap the piss out of you then slap you for pissin'

I bet! Those are great guns and can take the recoil if you can.

[rhouser]

I got my first Marlin 1895-S in the late 70's. With the micro-groove barrel I found I could use the Ruger 1 loads from my Sierra manual. Being in my late 20's I thought it was a manly thing. I would get bloody noses, headaches, and black and blue shoulder whenever I had to do load development. It was my Texas Hog & Dog truck gun.

Fast forward 30+ years. I picked up a new Marlin Stainless Guide Gun with the ballard cut rifling in about 2012. I found it to be amazingly accurate. It still is. I put a set of xcess sights and a rib on it. It is my Camp Gun through today and a fun gun the rest of the time. I generally load it with 405 gr boolits and a dose of SR-4759. I run it at about 1300 fps and it is a great rifle. I have bought the Leverevolution gummy tips and carried it for white tails in the pine swamps. For Hogs, I just switch powders to RL-7 or 3031.

Last is the in between. I have a Win High-Wall with a 30 inch barrel. IMHO, this is the greatest 45-70 of all times. I like to do the 200 - 400 yard "clangers" again at about 1200 fps. Remember to only rest your barrel on your cross sticks.

All in all, I love the 45-70. I have a few "Garret's" in the house for when I am in an area where I think I need them. Cast 405's at 1350+ will hole a hog end to end, so that is where my hunting lives.

Hope this helps with some perspective.

rch

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am of the mind that anything more than is necessary,,, is pointless and a waste of time and energy.

The original 400 gr Trapdoor Carbine load ran at about 1300 fps and was designed, as stated above, to completely penetrate a Horse in any direction. A 250 gr Keith boolit at 900 fps will completely penetrate an elk in any direction. I can do that easily with my .44 Specials. My .44 Magnum rifle is running the same boolits at 1600fps!

My standard .45-70 load is a RCBS 45-300 RNFP(about 325gr) with gas check, 33.0 gr of 5744 for about 1550-1600 fps. I can shoot 40 of these From my Marlin 1895CB (8Lbs) in one sitting in a silhouette match and not have any lasting after effects. There is recoil involved here!, and any more than this would push beyond my limits.

The whole point of that load is to actually hit targets and if I develop a flinch that doesn't happen as much.

Also this load will kill anything in NA as well as some smaller cars.

A 400 gr boolit at say 1400 fps would kill anything on earth as well as some larger cars. There are no prizes for how deep in the dirt beyond your animal the boolit goes. Once you get complete pass thru, anything else is pointless and only detracts from your accuracy by inducing more recoil.

I can fully understand the need that people have to shoot the most powerful gun in the valley. However after doing it myself, I realized that nobody cared, and my shoulder hurt.

Quite a few years ago I bought 5 or so boxes of Federal 12ga slugs for my Tactical Shotgun. Never really looked at the boxes because they were only $3.50 a box of 15 ea. and I got a deal!

Well I went to a 3 gun shoot and when it came time to shoot 2 steel targets at 30 yards I chucked up two of those slugs and let fly The first shot knocked the steel target end over end and tears squirted out of both my eyes!!! the second shot missed and I was done.

Going back to the car and reading the boxes revealed they were actually Federal Maximum 1 oz slugs at 1610 fps! I was totally not prepared for this level of recoil. These two shots resulted in 3 trips to my chiropractor to pop one of my front side ribs back in it's socket, and also resulted in the development of my 'Pumpkin Ball" shotgun loads which are a 400 gr ball at 1100fps.

It also was responsible for my new respect for the 12 ga shotgun as a defensive weapon, able to kill anything on this planet due to the wide variety of payloads that can be launched.

But my point here is that even though that gun can fire **** kicker loads there is seldom any need to actually do it.

And this relates directly to the .45-70 which has the same weight payload at the same speed.

Figure out a lower recoil load (300gr boolit?) to shoot most of the time and if you really feel you must, then shoot your heavy load for hunting. That way you can load about 20 of those, which should last you many years and still shoot your gun a lot and enjoy it with the lighter load.

My .02

Randy

[murf205]

Have you ever shot a 400 grain bullet at 1750 fps out of your Marlin?

I sure have and unless someone spots a T-rex anywhere near, I AINT gonna do it again. It grouped really well but it hurt-plain and simple.

[softpoint]

I won't try to talk you out of shooting 400 grain bullets that fast. But I can see a potential problem trying to push the hollow base Lee bullet that fast. It may rupture the "skirt" of the hollow base and destroy accuracy. That bullet was originally intended for black powder and lower velocity smokeless loads, where it does well. (I have that mold, I shoot Trailboss with it.) A far better boolit for those speeds in my opinion is either the RCBS Gascheck 400 grain or the Ranchdog 425grain, or something similar.

[Randy C]

Hard hitting loads and Speed kills the life of a gun,

[dondiego]

I sure have and unless someone spots a T-rex anywhere near, I AINT gonna do it again. It grouped really well but it hurt-plain and simple.

Yep, a friend loaded up 100 of that persuasion before he tested them and I still have 80 of them and his rifle. They hurt to shoot.