Do you give 10% to your church?

[Char-Gar]

Note to all:

There is much confusion about what the Bible means, with many people offering up different opinions, point folks to this or that teacher or this or that guide. There are so many different and contradictory approaches to Bible study, that the person begins to feel like a lab rat in a maze trying to find the way out.

There is an approach to Bible study that is called "Inductive Bible Study", who allows people to study the Bible for themselves and come to an understanding without being whipsawed back and forth by various others persons and their points of views.

Inductive Bible starts with the Book was a whole, the breaking Book down into it's major parts. The major parts are then broken down to their sub parts and the sub parts father broken down. There are certain questions that are asked of each part or sub part that helps to discover the context and meaning.

This involves ALLOT of work, but as you do it, it becomes easier. It does free the Bible student from the opinions of the various gurus. Google up "Inductive Bible Study" and you will find ample resources to help you on your way to Bible understanding. Avoid denominational material and they will have a pre-conceived outcome.

Nothing of value, comes without work and there is nothing more valuable that a Christian life based on Bible values.

[Ickisrulz]

Allow me to respond to your question and your question behind your question.

I do not believe that God makes mistakes. I do believe that people often make mistakes in their thinking about God. If all we know of God, is what people tell us about God, there will be ample mistakes, contradiction and conflicts.

There is a type of human that wants simple answers to complex questions and wants them handed to them on a sliver platter. It is not difficult to know what the Bible says, but often quite difficult to understand what the Bible means. To understand what the Bible means, a person must understand who wrote, why they wrote it, when it was written and to whom it was written.

Remove that, and you end up with a flat book concept of the Bible, where God verbally dictated every word and every word is given the same weight and validity as every other word. You will then have a God who is ambiguous, confused, conflicted, contradicted and whose mistakes are obvious.

There are plenty of church leader types who will gladly hand the individual a list of rules and regulations with the only instructions being "obey!". They do not want questions, thinking and certainly don't want to have their authority questioned.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I am a reasonable smart guy and I have spent my adult life studying scripture, trying to understand it and apply that understanding to my life. I have also shared with many people that understanding, through a teaching ministry.

Among other things, my study and understanding has show to me a God that is indeed perfect, but a creation that is flawed to the core, including their understanding of God.

There is another understanding about the development of the Bible that falls between the idea that biblical authors were reporters misunderstanding God and the idea that God dictated Scripture word-for-word to the authors.

This idea is that God was guiding and directing the writer behind the scenes using all He had at His disposal to write what He wished (I'm sure you know this). This understanding also requires the reader to determine who the writer was, why the Scripture was written and who it was written for. Modern day readers must also determine how it applies, if at all, to them. This understanding makes the claim that 100% of the Bible is inspired, but came about through a process. We always see God working through processes.

I just cannot wrap my mind around approaching the Bible with the view it contains erroneous reports concerning God. If it's filled with errors, how can we be sure of anything? You can always say, "Well, that part just isn't correct."

[Char-Gar]

There is another understanding about the development of the Bible that falls between the idea that biblical authors were reporters misunderstanding God and the idea that God dictated Scripture word-for-word to the authors.

This idea is that God was guiding and directing the writer behind the scenes using all He had at His disposal to write what He wished (I'm sure you know this). This understanding also requires the reader to determine who the writer was, why the Scripture was written and who it was written for. Modern day readers must also determine how it applies, if at all, to them. This understanding makes the claim that 100% of the Bible is inspired, but came about through a process. We always see God working through processes.

I just cannot wrap my mind around approaching the Bible with the view it contains erroneous reports concerning God. If it's filled with errors, how can we be sure of anything? You can always say, "Well, that part just isn't correct."

I would basically agree with you, that God inspired the full person. But that full person included some very primitive understandings.

In 2 Kings 2:23 Elisha was going into Bethel and some young boys were mocking him because he was bald. Elisha cursed them in God's name and two she bears came down and tore up 42 of them.

Did God use those bears to kill 42 children? It that the nature of God we see in Jesus? It that understanding consistent or inconsistent with a loving, forgiving and gracious God we see in Jesus, who prayed for the forgiveness of those who were torturing him to death?

Perhaps it is just the way ancient Jews express things. Perhaps it an ancient form of 1st. Cause logic whereby God is attributed with things He did not do? It is error or just an event that needs understanding in some way other than literal?

I don't choose to call such things errors. I choose to call them primitive thinking that misrepresents the nature and character of God. Whatever you want to call it, I don't worship a God that kills children who make fun of a ball headed man.

I am a Christian who walks hand in hand with Jesus through this life to the grave and beyond to life eternal with Him. I do not worship a book, I worship a crucified and risen Savior. There are far more things I don't understand about God, then I do understand, but I do know God does not kill 42 bad mannered children. This is just one of scores of examples I can give, but if this one isn't convincing, then dozens more will not be convincing either.

[6bg6ga]

Well, it would seem like we have people here that feel that the bible needs to be interpreted as written and others like myself that say hey lets take a good look at it because it could possibly hold other meanings. I for one have been told that I had to read the bible and accept the way it was written as fact.

I'll be blunt here....I have a problem with a God that would want someone to offer up his first born as a sacrifice or to kill 42 children. It would seem that we have conflicting information. Didn't God give us the 10 commandments? And didn't one say "Thou shalt not kill?"

I don't think the bible is perfect and I'm not saying that to justify my line of thinking. The Bible may have been inspired by God but it was still written by man and thus the ability to have it be twisted or turned. Getting back to the tithing and 10%... I think in todays world God may not expect one to simply give 10% and call it a day. Sure, its easy for one to write out a check for 10% and walk away and it a lot harder to give of ones self thru other types of works. We are also supposed to help the less fortunate but how many say they have done enough with that 10% check?

[6bg6ga]

Note to all:

There is much confusion about what the Bible means, with many people offering up different opinions, point folks to this or that teacher or this or that guide. There are so many different and contradictory approaches to Bible study, that the person begins to feel like a lab rat in a maze trying to find the way out.

There is an approach to Bible study that is called "Inductive Bible Study", who allows people to study the Bible for themselves and come to an understanding without being whipsawed back and forth by various others persons and their points of views.

Inductive Bible starts with the Book was a whole, the breaking Book down into it's major parts. The major parts are then broken down to their sub parts and the sub parts father broken down. There are certain questions that are asked of each part or sub part that helps to discover the context and meaning.

This involves ALLOT of work, but as you do it, it becomes easier. It does free the Bible student from the opinions of the various gurus. Google up "Inductive Bible Study" and you will find ample resources to help you on your way to Bible understanding. Avoid denominational material and they will have a pre-conceived outcome.

Nothing of value, comes without work and there is nothing more valuable that a Christian life based on Bible values.

Thank you for a logical path to understanding the bible. I for one will give it a try. I was looking for an unbiased approach to understanding.

[WRideout]

I was raised Baptist, became Methodist, and am now Lutheran. I also attended a Presbyterian seminary, which taught Reform theology. In Reform theology the Bible can be read, but not truly understood, without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That works for me. Also, I agree with the inductive approach, looking for the bigger picture. In that mode, even the doom and gloom books of the Old Testament can convey a sense of hope. I remember reading Jeremiah, and finding that there were indeed words of hope in there, along with the descriptions of impending destruction.

Wayne

[BOSCHLOPER]

My wife and I were individually giving 10% before we started dating, and we have continued. That's 10% before taxes (do you want God to bless you before or after taxes?). With the other things to missionaries in Haiti, the local campus ministry & etc. it is well over 10%.

Sometimes I realize that God is blessing us, but most of the time I am too dumb to catch on.

[Char-Gar]

My wife and I were individually giving 10% before we started dating, and we have continued. That's 10% before taxes (do you want God to bless you before or after taxes?). With the other things to missionaries in Haiti, the local campus ministry & etc. it is well over 10%.

Sometimes I realize that God is blessing us, but most of the time I am too dumb to catch on.

Don't believe God's blessing are for sale. His sun shines on the just and the unjust as well as his rain. God blesses us because it is his loving nature to do so, not because we prime the pump with giving.

[Thundarstick]

Absolutely!
The Bible has many examples of evil men profiting and appear to be blessed of God, who are doing and living an evil life!

[6bg6ga]

Just look at some of your wealthy TV preachers in todays world. See where some if not all of your 10% is going?

[Char-Gar]

Absolutely!
The Bible has many examples of evil men profiting and appear to be blessed of God, who are doing and living an evil life!

I learned early on that success does not equal being blessed by God. Hitler, Stalin and many others were very evil, but successful at what they did. Hitler did a pretty good job of exterminating the European Jews, and that was not due to a blessing from God.

There is a current pop theology going around, whereby the preachers tell folks that having more and more material things is the product of their faith and blessings of God. The Gospel of Greed is afoot in this country and attracting many followers. The prophets of this false gospel amass great wealth and live large as an example to their followers. It is a cancer on the Christian faith and the most dangerous heresy in history, for it appeals to the most base instincts of human nature.

[fatelk]

Many years ago my wife attended a Women's Bible study where the leader claimed that illness was a sign of sin. She said that chronic illness especially was a clear sign that you had some deep-seated sin in your life that you need to confess and defeat before you could heal. They were young and well meaning, but scripturally ignorant.

My wife told them they were wrong, quoting chapter and verse to prove it. She's dealt with chronic pain and illness to some degree most of her life. It's amazing what is preached in the name of Christ that is clearly and seriously false.

[Walkingwolf]

I give 10% or more to the Church of my Firearm Dreams.

[Char-Gar]

Many years ago my wife attended a Women's Bible study where the leader claimed that illness was a sign of sin. She said that chronic illness especially was a clear sign that you had some deep-seated sin in your life that you need to confess and defeat before you could heal. They were young and well meaning, but scripturally ignorant.

My wife told them they were wrong, quoting chapter and verse to prove it. She's dealt with chronic pain and illness to some degree most of her life. It's amazing what is preached in the name of Christ that is clearly and seriously false.

Everybody in my family turns grey headed early. I once had a woman tell me my grey hair was a result of unconfessed sin. I laughed and through that level of ignorance was funny. About six months later she told a man in my church, who had just lost his wife to cancer, that she died because of lack of faith in Jesus. It tore the man up and I didn't laugh that one off, but told that woman, who worked nearby to get out of my church and never come back.

[fatelk]

About six months later she told a man in my church, who had just lost his wife to cancer, that she died because of lack of faith in Jesus.

Oh wow, that is terrible. How could someone, especially someone who calls them self a Christian, be so callous and uncaring? That is really sad. Good for you to ask her to leave.

[6bg6ga]

My church every year goes thru a tithing section where I believe there are four sundays in which tithing is dwelled on. Anyway, my paster told the congregation that the more you give the more you will be blessed. Honesty here.....that sounds more like a used car salesman describing how you would be better off spending more to buy the delux model over the standard model. So, you spend more and you will be blessed more? This seems to be the selling point at my church in my opinion. Lets get real here.... why not just figure out what the budget is and how much is in the church's bank account? Big problem there..... there is a lot of money in that old account and people would back off the giving and thus the bottom line would go down. So guilt is employed in order to get that 10% because it is written in the bible and therefore is is LAW!

Pretty easy back then to access a 10% tax and obtain it. Why? Simple, what else did people have? They probably produced more than what they needed thus no problem getting that 10%. Nowdays people are strapped getting a home paying insurance on it a car with insurance kids and the associated problems cell phones and maintenance on the kids. Take that 10% off the top now and then do the math. Not enough left in most cases to pay the bills or be timely doing so.

Giving and receiving.... I've done the math. Giving 5% still means I'm 5% short on money to pay my bills. Giving in my opinion doesn't mean I will get a 25% windfall because I gave. Even heard the devil tells you not to give.

Probably get into trouble for saying this but.... I can't say that I really believe in the devil. I can say that I believe in man's ability to be cruel, to be mean and disrespectful and hateful. However, logic would dictate that there is an opposite and for good that would be evil, light, dark and so forth. I think man instead of fessing up has an out and that out is called the devil. Heck I even heard a Baptist preacher blame the devil for the sound system not working. Worked on several of those sound systems where the devil made them quit. One was a Toa A912MKII that is notorious for having a protection circuit problem. This one had hit that magic age where I replaced the (6) capacitors in that circuit and it came back to life. Factory flaw one cap was under rated for voltage. The devil still did it by the way. Got to love those insurance claims. Most church's will not pass up an opportunity for an insurance claim when in fact they knew the problem was one of age and not a lightning hit. Double standard here? You as a member of the church must live a good life but that paster can raise hell in order to get a new mixer board because his is 10 years old and yes lightning did strike in his town during that storm the other night and yes he has no other damage in his church. My favorite here... the story of a catholic church with the paster wanting a new mixer a Shure SCM810. (Had been replaced by the way 2 months earlier.) He told me to replace it and I responded with father its working fine and there is nothing wrong with it. He responded "I want it replaced!" "I've paid my insurance its my right to have it replaced." Not quite ethical for me to replace it father when it doesn't have a problem. He went over my head to my boss and since it was a big well established account I was told to replace it. Funny thing if I had gone into the confessional and told him that I had swindled the insurnce company out of something he would have been the first to tell me to make amends and make it right.

Its easy to blame and hard to take responsibility. There is a point where logic needs to be called in. I have no love for the devil if there is one but I do believe that logic and common sense needs to be employed. I think this thing of giving needs to be explored more. Who says you cannot give a gift of your talents, your time, your efforts in something that the church will benefit from? Its easy to open up to a passage where it says give XX and it requires more effort to see if there isn't something else written.

[dverna]

6bg6ga,
Last I looked, church leaders are human. Yes, we tend to hold them to a higher standard but it does not always happen.

I have been fortunate to find a church that has a level of hypocrisy I find acceptable. There is no perfect church. If there was, it would be overflowing with followers.

Maybe it is time for you to search out another church?

BTW, I know of two churches that will never demand 10% of your income, or make someone who is unable to contribute cash feel unwelcome.

[JBinMN]

I am getting the feeling that someone is going to have to justify in their mind & heart whether giving of their time is as acceptable as an equivalent to giving of $$. Until that is done & that persons mind( & heart) is made up, that it is going to continue to be an "issue" with them.

I am going to try to offer another example of why I say that ones time is just as valuable as $$.

If the church has a sound system that needs repair & the church would have to spend $100 for labor to have the system fixed, then the outlay of the church would be $100 in the end. If someone that is a member of the church does the repairs and charges $0.00 for their "time", instead of charging $100, the church is now "ahead" due to that members "Time". The church , rather than have an outlay to pay someone the $100, just had a member "pay" the $100 with their "time" to get the work done, rather than having to pay a non member of that church a $100. That would be no different that the member repairing the sound system paying the church the $100 to have the repairs done by a non member.
[ IOW... Church bank account has $1000 in it. Repairs would cost $100, leaving a balance of $900 remaining, after paying someone who is a non member to repair the system. Instead, the church balance is $1000 and a member does the same work for no charge, the balance remains at $1000. Had that member "tithed" $100 in money rather than their time to pay for the non member to do the repairs, the same $100 payed to the non member for repairs would happen, and the church balance still remains at $1000. Thus the TIME by the MEMBER is EQUIVALENT to the $100 that could have been contributed as a "TITHE".

Until someone realizes that TIME can EQUAL $$, and accepts that in their mind ( & heart), then the issue will remain for that person on whether they can TITHE using TIME rather than MONEY.

Let each give according to what they can afford, seems to be the point. Some can afford to tithe TIME while others lacking the skills to tithe with time, tithe with MONEY( or, as in the old days, products of their labors).

Like was said many times now & again just recently by dverna ... perhaps someone should find another church that will accept TIME in labor as an equivalent to the $$ given by labors, instead of making someone worry about how the church feels about what they tithe.

It is "my" belief that their maker & their lord would understand this simple concept of "giving what one could".

I do not think I will reply to this topic any longer. I have tried my best to help & do not know what else that I could do to help any more.

G'Luck! in your decision(s).

[rosewood]

In my experience, those at church that do invest a lot of time also tithe faithfully. It is many that don't tithe that sit in the pews, complain about the paint and carpet color and donate no time or money to the church. And then complain when reminded to give.

[Char-Gar]

6bg6ga....I think we have beat this horse long enough. You have plenty of people that agree with you and have told you why.

This tithing emphasis of "your church" seems to have really gotten under you skin. Time for you to either ignore it (if you can) or find another church (if you can't).