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Thread: Do you give 10% to your church?

  1. #81
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty o View Post
    i agree with you 100%. in short, no you are not robbing God.
    "Robbing God" is an artificial metaphor that has nothing to do with our creator God and our relationship to him. It has everything to do with a human institution, i.e. a church, and nothing to do with God. I am truly sorry, sorry that it has shown up in this conversation.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    "Robbing God" is an artificial metaphor that has nothing to do with our creator God and our relationship to him. It has everything to do with a human institution, i.e. a church, and nothing to do with God. I am truly sorry, sorry that it has shown up in this conversation.
    it came from a preacher, what ya gonna do?

  3. #83
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    By the way, when I mentioned "holier-than-thou" folks, I wasn't referring to anyone here. This is a sincere issue that I do think about, and my wife and I have discussed many times.

    This has been a civil discussion. I'm not offended and I hope I haven't offended anyone. To those of you that tithe a full 10% or more, I don't mean any disrespect at all. I do think giving is important and if you can do 50%, more power to you, all the better!

    I think it's a very personal thing, and while sacrifice is important, it's more important to have the right attitude about it.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    "Robbing God" is an artificial metaphor that has nothing to do with our creator God and our relationship to him. It has everything to do with a human institution, i.e. a church, and nothing to do with God. I am truly sorry, sorry that it has shown up in this conversation.
    I remember the phrase from a sermon that our previous pastor gave during a building campaign. He's a good man and I respect him as a pastor, but I kind of felt like he had some sermons from a book on how to milk the congregation for a building campaign. I think the actual phrase he used was something like "I'm not saying you're robbing God if you don't give 10%, but... you know... if the shoe fits..."

    We raised the money and built a nice big building. After it was built the church went through some troubles. A lot of long time people left, they had to lay off the well loved associate pastor because they couldn't pay him and the big new mortgage. Then the pastor left on short notice to go to a mega-church out of state. He always liked mega-churches and the way they do things, with lots of flash and show. Again, a very sincere, good man, but with a little different perspective than myself.

    People complain about churches, but the real problem with churches is that they are full of people. Even at our best we're imperfect, fallen creatures. If you ever find a perfect church you'd better not attend, because then it wouldn't be perfect anymore!
    Last edited by fatelk; 12-13-2017 at 01:15 AM.

  5. #85
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    I've never tithed. But I do believe in giving. I stopped going to my last church when the minister asked every family to donate $500 because it was time to get new rotor blades for the "church" helicopter.

  6. #86
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    Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola is a very good read on church, churches, and churching.

    This thread shows how much lack of understanding and inability to rightly devide the word.
    Go to any of your churches on Sunday morning, where I attend included, look at the cars in the parking lot and the cloths we wear and tell me how many there give till it hurts? Then go to members homes and ask the same question. The real answer is, you can't give enough, but you are to be responsible for the things you are given and how you use them. Something else to keep in mind, money just does not cure spiritual ills! I've known wonderful spiritual Christians both rich and poor in money, all rich in the spirit though!
    Last edited by Thundarstick; 12-13-2017 at 08:16 AM.

  7. #87
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    The book of Malachi in the bible is a good place to find robbing God

  8. #88
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    I've examined my finances many times. If I take 10% of my gross out I don't have money to make the motgage payment or to pay utility bills or to purchase groceries. My wife works but not full time. I have a second job of repairing the electronics that come thru the shop where I still work. My second job is feast or famine. There are some months where I don't repair a thing and others when I do make some money. I fund my churches electronic repairs from my repair fund so it doesn't cost them anything in parts or labor. I have also repaired equipment for other small churches that just didn't have the money for repairs or replacement.

    I guess I don't have any faith either that or I have common sense. If I remove 10% off the top it isn't going to come back to me it just doesn't happen. A-B=C and B doesn't automatically come back or change somehow so that A is larger. The logic is simple.... take the gross remove 10% and you have a lesser amount and just because you removed 10% doesn't mean that the next months gross is going to be larger.

    I give what I can in monitary amount and I give of myself my talents and gifts that God has given me and donate the parts. Now, my time as I mentioned should be as good a money any day of the week. Anyone telling me that my time my education my experience in repair isn't worth anything in my opinion needs their head examined. As I mentioned earlier the church would have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars taking their malfunctioning and broken electronics to another shop. I saved them a considerable amount of money considering they paid out nothing for my repairs other than having someone at the church to spend 5 minutes with me to tell me the problem or help load up equipment into my SUV.

  9. #89
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    As I said earlier I never preach a tithing sermon every one of you have to work out your relationship with the Lord personally, grow in that relationship as you grow in faith . I see a lot of folks defending themselves but not the Lord. you serve the Lord with all your heart. He will bless you. The church some good some greatly misguided is the body of Christ. The church is not a building it is each of you coming together to worship the Lord. The time you give the Lord in service is also part of returning tithes to the Lord, your money you give supports the work of the ministry. God wants your heart to trust him, follow Him, serve Him. Not some misguided preacher, I learned early on there are preachers called by God and preachers called by momma. You have to discern the truth, follow the truth, and as Jesus said the truth will set you free.
    I have read all the posts and find many seem to be written by folks who need to learn to trust Jesus an quit making excuses why they don't do something and ask the Lord what they should be doing.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher Jim View Post
    As I said earlier I never preach a tithing sermon every one of you have to work out your relationship with the Lord personally, grow in that relationship as you grow in faith . I see a lot of folks defending themselves but not the Lord. you serve the Lord with all your heart. He will bless you. The church some good some greatly misguided is the body of Christ. The church is not a building it is each of you coming together to worship the Lord. The time you give the Lord in service is also part of returning tithes to the Lord, your money you give supports the work of the ministry. God wants your heart to trust him, follow Him, serve Him. Not some misguided preacher, I learned early on there are preachers called by God and preachers called by momma. You have to discern the truth, follow the truth, and as Jesus said the truth will set you free.
    I have read all the posts and find many seem to be written by folks who need to learn to trust Jesus an quit making excuses why they don't do something and ask the Lord what they should be doing.
    Since this is probably directed to me I will answer.

    I can only see the logical here. If I take away from my gross I don't have enough funds to pay all my bills. No amount of faith is going to bring back the money that is gone. If I really had it I wouldn't have a problem. I don't I cannot put it out without putting my family in a hardship. I won't loose the house to make that 10% and end up living under a bridge somewhere.

    It would seem that your attitude mave have taken a change?

    My church halfway thru the year brings in 1.5 Million. My church is blessed with a lot of people that can afford 10% or 25% or more. My church also needs to come to the realization that seemless video switchers that are two years old and function correctly don't need upgraded. My church should have sourced their audio system locally and they would have gotten their moneys worth. Sometimes having an excess of money = the inability to make good decisions. Maybe part of this wanting a full 10% is fueled by the lack of decent leadership.

  11. #91
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatelk View Post
    I remember the phrase from a sermon that our previous pastor gave during a building campaign. He's a good man and I respect him as a pastor, but I kind of felt like he had some sermons from a book on how to milk the congregation for a building campaign. I think the actual phrase he used was something like "I'm not saying you're robbing God if you don't give 10%, but... you know... if the shoe fits..."

    We raised the money and built a nice big building. After it was built the church went through some troubles. A lot of long time people left, they had to lay off the well loved associate pastor because they couldn't pay him and the big new mortgage. Then the pastor left on short notice to go to a mega-church out of state. He always liked mega-churches and the way they do things, with lots of flash and show. Again, a very sincere, good man, but with a little different perspective than myself.

    People complain about churches, but the real problem with churches is that they are full of people. Even at our best we're imperfect, fallen creatures. If you ever find a perfect church you'd better not attend, because then it wouldn't be perfect anymore!
    I have seen the same scenario play out several times. A pastor over builds, lays debts on the church and uses his "success" to move on leaving the debt for his successor to deal with. I have been that successor on two occasions. I have seen the conflict that follows and had the task of rebuilding the church as a Christian community and digging the church out of the burdensome debt.

    I am not as charitable as you are in thinking, about the culprit pastor. These types are mostly One Eyed Jacks, and being in the same profession, I see the other side of their faces.

    Lots of good faithful Pastor, but there is also a fair share of opportunistic career track people, that use churches like rungs on a ladder. I guess it is a testimony to the faith of the church members that they can't often see the difference. I have known pastors I would not trust with my wife, daughter or a $100.00 bill.

    I trust Jesus completely and totally, Pastors and religious institutions not so much. Scripture tells us the church is of God and will endure forever. I believe that and scripture is talking about the invisible universal faith community of believers in Jesus. It is not necessary taking about the building at Whatever and Whichever street with a sign out front that says "Church".
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 12-13-2017 at 11:51 AM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  12. #92
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    In the book of Leviticus, 27:30, there is an interesting passage about tithing. It appears that a donor may redeem their crop tithe for its market value, plus 20%. Thus, a donor who had experienced a shortage of grain, could buy back his tithe for it's value plus 20%.

    This is very interesting. It may reflect that we are to give more than we need, but the Lord will still provide, as we can acquire whatever we need by trading something else the Lord has given us in abundance. Of course, it would not apply to animals as they would be sacrificed and thus not redeemable. The need to redeem at a 20% mark up seems a bit strange and I do not understand why God would need to profit....but that is what it says.
    Don Verna


  13. #93
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    A pastor over builds, lays debts on the church and uses his "success" to move on leaving the debt for his successor to deal with.

    Are you saying that one man is in charge of making the long term, or for that matter any, financial descisions for a congergation? That in and of itself would turn me away if it's so.

  14. #94
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher Jim View Post
    The book of Malachi in the bible is a good place to find robbing God
    Malachi is the last book in the OT and was written 100 years or so after the Jews had returned from Babylon and rebuilt the Temple. Now the Priesthood was corrupt and the people apathetic. Malachi was telling them of upcoming judgment and the need of salvation.

    I fail to see how this is relevant to not giving 10% of your income to your local religious institution that may or may not be using it wisely. The situation to which Malachi was speaking is not analogous to the questions posed by this thread.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  15. #95
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    A pastor over builds, lays debts on the church and uses his "success" to move on leaving the debt for his successor to deal with.

    Are you saying that one man is in charge of making the long term, or for that matter any, financial descisions for a congergation? That in and of itself would turn me away if it's so.
    The level of decision making authority vested in the Pastor, varies from denomination and institution. Some religious groups are entirely Pastor lead, others have lay leadership as well. Even with lay leadership, the Pastor being the spiritual leader, is in the position to posit and convince, the lay leadership, about the best direction for the church to go into the future. Pastor's may not be the ultimate decision maker, but they do have great influence on the decision making process.

    The quality of clergy and lay leadership varies quite a bit, so mistakes in decision making are not rare.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher Jim View Post
    As I said earlier I never preach a tithing sermon every one of you have to work out your relationship with the Lord personally, grow in that relationship as you grow in faith . I see a lot of folks defending themselves but not the Lord. you serve the Lord with all your heart. He will bless you. The church some good some greatly misguided is the body of Christ. The church is not a building it is each of you coming together to worship the Lord. The time you give the Lord in service is also part of returning tithes to the Lord, your money you give supports the work of the ministry. God wants your heart to trust him, follow Him, serve Him. Not some misguided preacher, I learned early on there are preachers called by God and preachers called by momma. You have to discern the truth, follow the truth, and as Jesus said the truth will set you free.
    I have read all the posts and find many seem to be written by folks who need to learn to trust Jesus an quit making excuses why they don't do something and ask the Lord what they should be doing.
    wow a little touchy arent we?

  17. #97
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    I'm late to the discussion, but a few points to consider......
    I'm an adhere to a Lot of what Dave Ramsey has said. Not all, but most. He has mentioned tithing a number of times and if you haven't heard what he's said, go take a listen, it won't take long. He IS an evangelical Christian, so that is a big influence. But one other point, that is VERY significant to a lot of churches that push tithing, is DEBT. If your Church has significant DEBT, they aren't following scripture either.
    Now massive DEBT and tithing REQUIREMENTS, are two primary reasons why I don't attend a church at this time. Past experience soured my when my father, who was a founder in my youth church, was sick and ill. Building larger and larger buildings that were NOT required, but WANTED was more important to the administration and I left the church. A lot of good folks, but poor management. I'm long gone from the area and so were most of the folks there too.....
    IMO,
    Give what YOU are able and Believe that YOU should Give. If it is a dime in the offering plate, or a dollar or ten thousand dollars, It is of no concern to anyone but YOU and God.

    Anyone preaching that you MUST give past your means needs to be ignored. Go find another church that meets your needs. This one is in TROUBLE financially I expect.

  18. #98
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    Don - The need to redeem at a 20% mark up seems a bit strange and I do not understand why God would need to profit - crop is laid up as offering but storage/threshing costs need to be paid? Back to the widow mite - an allegory for sure - so no way of knowing the 'situation'. The law was given to Adam & Eve - Cain told God " am I my brother's keeper?". A rhetorical question. It was 'given', written, to Moses, as a MEMO - we are NOT keeping it. I find no evidence in any scripture that women at any time were required or expected to provide a tithe or offering. As a guard was placed next to the tithe box, would that 'event' not be very startling to the 'officials'?
    Last nite's election in Al. shows how far out of control our Gov. is at all levels and the comments here also show how far out of control the churches are. As Malachi (& many others) points out, a reckoning is coming soon.
    (Congress has just shown their interest is in eliminating the Executive branch of our Gov. to only be a 'rubber-stamp' position). If you belong to a denomination that 'votes' for church issues, you find that 60% of the congregation votes to go along with the preacher. It's a given. If the going gets rough, they then vote with their feet.
    Whatever!

  19. #99
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    10%? Never have and never will. But if I ever come into a nice sum of money you can bet St Judes Children's hospital will get a big chunk of it. But a church? Never.
    East Tennessee

  20. #100
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    You cannot BUY your way to heaven with money! I gave up going to church, instead I study the religions of the American Indians. Some would jump up and down on me for that but the Native Americans were more religious and gave more thanks than any Christian group. They believed that Everything created by God was sacred. Anyone that accumulated wealth without sharing was looked down upon. If one went hungry they all went hungry! They were happy and prospered until the white man brought Christianity to them.

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