Do you give 10% to your church?

[Preacher Jim]

Char I pray i am. Free will allows all to make the commitment by faith to what they do. You and I mostly agree in principle. Those were good posts by the way.

[tinhorn97062]

I currently am not attending a church. And I’ve been called worse than “self centered”. While others are working hard at attending a church, I can be found working hard at BEING the church. Other peoples’ Mileage may vary.

[gandydancer]

I started out to be raised a Catholic I stopped studying the catechism after getting my 3rd beating & a split ear from the priest. Went home with a bloodied ear. I never had to go back. I found out many years later my mom went back to see the priest and gave him a bloodie nose, my mom died when I was eleven years old 66 years ago. And I have never been back inside a church of any kind sense nor will I ever be again. I have faith just not the canned kind.

[6bg6ga]

I don't feel any post here is less than relevant or undeserving of thought. It is my wish however that this thread might continue and people be able to comment and learn in a peaceful setting. No need to sling mud or be little anyone. We all have our own thoughts and comments on the subject I posted and I for one would really appreciate being able to hear from anyone wishing to comment.


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[dverna]

I don't feel any post here is less than relevant or undeserving of thought. It is my wish however that this thread might continue and people be able to comment and learn in a peaceful setting. No need to sling mud or be little anyone. We all have our own thoughts and comments on the subject I posted and I for one would really appreciate being able to hear from anyone wishing to comment.


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JBinMN gave us some good reading and study material in his post where this concept is discussed in the Bible....the word of God....albeit coming from mortal men who recorded it and lesser men who after centuries translated it. But it is what we have.

I have more faith in that, than what opinions others may have.

In the end, the individual must make a decision. He has God to look to for direction.

In my case, I see some abuse of tithing by some churches/ministers. But that is because their congregations are fearful of ridicule or worse. Helping those less fortunate and spreading the word of God are what I believe God expects us to do.

[6bg6ga]

JBinMN gave us some good reading and study material in his post where this concept is discussed in the Bible....the word of God....albeit coming from mortal men who recorded it and lesser men who after centuries translated it. But it is what we have.

I have more faith in that, than what opinions others may have.

In the end, the individual must make a decision. He has God to look to for direction.

In my case, I see some abuse of tithing by some churches/ministers. But that is because their congregations are fearful of ridicule or worse. Helping those less fortunate and spreading the word of God are what I believe God expects us to do.

This is exactly why I started the thread in the first place. I wanted to learn and I wanted opinions from others. Based on my church's attitude on tithing and their lack of consideration on members giving of themselves I question their attitudes and their motives. So far it looks like most of the information on tithing is coming from the OLD TESTAMENT?

With respect to the translation of the bible and the recording of the bible I was taught that it was recorded exactly as meant due to divine intervention. Faith has us believing that everything is correct. Yet, why are there books that aren't in the bible or allowed in the bible? Is it that we are capable of judging over God what he wants in his book or does it just suit our needs better?

With respect to the Old Testament.... I thought it was superseded by the New Testament?

[Preacher Jim]

Free will allows all to make the commitment by faith to what they do. I see me in many of these posts stages I went through. I was the guy who never went back to church after bad experience. The one who could not stand organized religion and still can't.
I am not religious but am a Christian and yes I pastor a small church that focus on serving Christ and reaching folks for the kingdom not to grow numbers but make disciples.
My use of the word self-centered was to provoke thought as to motives of all our positions, are we Christ centered or church centered, or self centered. I pray all in this thread can honestly say Christ centered where ever you are in your positions.

[Wayne Smith]

On the issue of an excuse vs reason. Reason is rooted in fact and reality. Excuses are rooted in desire. They are both part of my perception and understanding.

[Electric88]

With respect to the Old Testament.... I thought it was superseded by the New Testament?

It could be thought of that way. The New Testament supersedes the Old Testament primarily concerning how one would relate to and/or serve God. In the Old Testament, this was achieved through the law. In the New Testament, it describes how Jesus came and died for us, and through that the law was fulfilled entirely. Today, one's relationship with God is one of faith in Him and grace for our sins as opposed to attempting to fulfill every tenet of the law and be subject to its consequences.

However, the Old Testament is still relevant from the standpoint that many things shared are analogous to today's Christians. One example is the current subject, the tithe. In Genesis 14:18-20 it describes how Abraham (then Abram) gave a tenth to the King of Salem and "a priest of the Most High God" named Melchizedek. In the New Testament, Hebrews 5:6 it describes God saying to his Son (Jesus) that he was "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek". This is one of the ways that people have associated the tithe (10%) with relevance in the New Testament. But many here are also correct in saying that giving is something that will come from the heart from a desire to please and serve the Lord.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but this is something my wife and I do our best to live by.

[dverna]

6bg6ga,

You are wise to question your church and leaders. When something does not seem right, only a fool would not question it.

Here, you have received a number of opinions. Again, I refer you to the post JBinMN shared with us. In only a few hours of reading and thinking you will make a lot progress. You will form and solidify your own opinions based on the Word. If your minister/preacher is any good he will help you with any questions you have after you do your homework. If he blows you off, well....it says a lot.

Good luck.

[Char-Gar]

The Old Testament is the record of God's dealing with the Jews. If that was all that was needed, there would have never been a New Testament. The hard fact is that the law which controlled the life of the Jews didn't work, it never does. It took God coming in the person of Jesus to set things right, through faith and grace.

The notion that the OT has the same weight and value as the NT is an erroneous concept, if folks just stop and think about it a while. Yet, many Christian groups try and drag us backward into OT law. If it didn't work pre-Jesus, why do they think it will work now.

I will admit that following rules and laws, is easier than thinking, studying and praying, so maybe folks like the easy way out.

[6bg6ga]

If the Old Testament dealt with the Jews then what bearing does it have on us in todays world? If the New Testament came into play to be a better and more complete book for us to follow then is everything in the old testament still binding? To me its like a revision B that takes priority over revision A. I don't see the need to sacrifice ones first born male child in todays time nor 10% of ones wheat crop nor do I really see the value of providing 10% of ones wages for example if one has provided services instead.

[6bg6ga]

I will apologize in advance but being a repair technician its my nature to question everything. Some people blindly follow without a second thought and I was taught to look, to investigate, and to question. I do realize that my questioning will irritate some who are very devout and never question anything. I'll be blunt here....I do not accept the bible line and verse because as I see it there are so many things that can be viewed differently.

The bible mentions Noahs ark that 2) of every species was put aboard. Some blindly accept this as being true. Now, take the dimensions of Noah's ark and you will easily be able to come to the conclusion that two of every species wouldn't even begin to fit on it given is size. So, do you blindly accept the Ark containing 2) of every species? What about plant life? Things don't add up period. If the world was completely flooded for 40 days then plant life, trees, vines, all animal life and so forth would be gone. Its simple logic. Its a nice story but it unfortunately isn't true when you figure internal volume of the ark. Which is it that God wants? Blind faith or people to be able to reason things out and use logic.

Maybe the idea of tithing is indeed a story an idea whose purpose is to make people think? Maybe it was put into terms the people of that time were capable of understanding. Give to God 10%. Maybe God doesn't care if the 10% is in good works in his name, being on a security team at your church, or in my case repairing audio and video equipment. Maybe God just wants you to get off you *** and do something that is positive.

Maybe its easier just to do as it is written than it is to question what has been written and why. I for many years when working in a factory would not blindly follow the ways things were done in the past. I sought better and more efficient ways of doing things. When I see something that doesn't quite add up I will question it. The same goes for my church...I see so much waste just because there is plenty of money in the pot.

I'm sure there is some kind of God or almighty deity. I sincerely doubt that he is going to sit at heavins gate with a calculator and say this guy is ok and this guy is 1% short in his tithe. Maybe the guy that gave his 10% didn't live a good life and lusted after his neighbors wife or daughter. I think that God might just take into consideration that you did what you could and call it a day.

[rosewood]

The animals could have been babies, not adult, take up less space. Some may have well been eggs. As for plants, there are these things called seeds, they could easily be dormant and sprout once the sun hits them. They did not have to be on the ark, the bible never mentioned plants anyway. There may have even been eggs that were not on the ark that hatched after the waters receded. I am an engineer by the way and i too question everything.

Also from certain animals like dogs, all canines have the same DNA, they are just different breeds, all are rooted from the wolf. There was probably a pair of wolves and that is where all dogs came from.

[6bg6ga]

Then sir you would easily be able to do the math and see that baby animals would also not fit when you consider all the species. So, are you saying that Noah harvested DNA preserved it and somehow manipulated it to arrive at different breeds of canines for example? Questionable that plants were available in seed form given the somewhat limited time Noah had to build the Ark.

I'm sorry but the tale is like a childs bedtime story. Sounds good until you start breaking it down into logical form.

[dverna]

The Old Testament is the record of God's dealing with the Jews. If that was all that was needed, there would have never been a New Testament. The hard fact is that the law which controlled the life of the Jews didn't work, it never does. It took God coming in the person of Jesus to set things right, through faith and grace.

The notion that the OT has the same weight and value as the NT is an erroneous concept, if folks just stop and think about it a while. Yet, many Christian groups try and drag us backward into OT law. If it didn't work pre-Jesus, why do they think it will work now.

I will admit that following rules and laws, is easier than thinking, studying and praying, so maybe folks like the easy way out.

Char-Gar,

There are many who believe every verse, sentence and word in the Bible is 100% absolute and true. I am not one of them, and that has been one hurdle in my journey to Christ. I have been counseled to not question so much and to have faith....but I am not there yet and may never be.

Yet I believe in Jesus and in God. But I do not believe God is perfect. He makes mistakes. Your opinion of why we have a New Testament makes sense. God realized that following His Word in the OT was not working and made a correction. It cost Him His Son.

And a covenant written to the Jews would require all of us to become Jews. As Christians we believe in Christ and in so doing we know that Jesus stands there to guide us to God through grace and faith.

I am sorry I have contributed to thread drift but I thank all who post and make me think.

[Virginia John]

What you give is between you and God, his directions are clear and are found in more than one place. Don't forget the poor, sick, homeless, etc.

[6bg6ga]

Char-Gar,

There are many who believe every verse, sentence and word in the Bible is 100% absolute and true. I am not one of them, and that has been one hurdle in my journey to Christ. I have been counseled to not question so much and to have faith....but I am not there yet and may never be.

Yet I believe in Jesus and in God. But I do not believe God is perfect. He makes mistakes. Your opinion of why we have a New Testament makes sense. God realized that following His Word in the OT was not working and made a correction. It cost Him His Son.

And a covenant written to the Jews would require all of us to become Jews. As Christians we believe in Christ and in so doing we know that Jesus stands there to guide us to God through grace and faith.

I am sorry I have contributed to thread drift but I thank all who post and make me think.

I am grateful for all comments that people have made. I personally do not see it as a drift. People need to reason things out and be able to think on their own and not accept blind canned information. I for one do not think God expects us to accept everything hook line and sinker but rather read and question things.

When you look at the concept of the here it is in book form you will learn it obey it and not go over the line absolutely doesn't make any sense. God has invested a lot of time and thought in the human race and the world we live in. Maybe just maybe he expects us to read the word and be able to question it and to arrive at a possible meaning or possible meanings. Maybe the idea of tithing in todays world is different than it was 2000 years ago.

[popper]

I'm glad that someone brought up Ananias and his wife Sapphira. We do know from Scripture the events, but a question arises. Did they ever have salvation or was it 'lost' due to their actions? Any answer to that question is pure SPECULATION. To base any DOCTRINE on SPECULATION is FOOLISHNESS.
I disagree with Don about God making mistakes, even thought scripture 'tends' to indicate that. HE is sad about the results we provide to his wisdom. HE desires for us to not err.
Statements by many claiming God looks like 'this or that' are foolish. No one living/lived on this earth has seen God. Scripture states Adam HEARD GOD but nowhere does it say he SAW GOD. Same with Cain ( & Able?).

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar,

There are many who believe every verse, sentence and word in the Bible is 100% absolute and true. I am not one of them, and that has been one hurdle in my journey to Christ. I have been counseled to not question so much and to have faith....but I am not there yet and may never be.

Yet I believe in Jesus and in God. But I do not believe God is perfect. He makes mistakes. Your opinion of why we have a New Testament makes sense. God realized that following His Word in the OT was not working and made a correction. It cost Him His Son.

And a covenant written to the Jews would require all of us to become Jews. As Christians we believe in Christ and in so doing we know that Jesus stands there to guide us to God through grace and faith.

I am sorry I have contributed to thread drift but I thank all who post and make me think.

Allow me to respond to your question and your question behind your question.

I do not believe that God makes mistakes. I do believe that people often make mistakes in their thinking about God. If all we know of God, is what people tell us about God, there will be ample mistakes, contradiction and conflicts.

There is a type of human that wants simple answers to complex questions and wants them handed to them on a sliver platter. It is not difficult to know what the Bible says, but often quite difficult to understand what the Bible means. To understand what the Bible means, a person must understand who wrote, why they wrote it, when it was written and to whom it was written.

Remove that, and you end up with a flat book concept of the Bible, where God verbally dictated every word and every word is given the same weight and validity as every other word. You will then have a God who is ambiguous, confused, conflicted, contradicted and whose mistakes are obvious.

There are plenty of church leader types who will gladly hand the individual a list of rules and regulations with the only instructions being "obey!". They do not want questions, thinking and certainly don't want to have their authority questioned.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I am a reasonable smart guy and I have spent my adult life studying scripture, trying to understand it and apply that understanding to my life. I have also shared with many people that understanding, through a teaching ministry.

Among other things, my study and understanding has show to me a God that is indeed perfect, but a creation that is flawed to the core, including their understanding of God.