AO Niedner barreled 1885 Winchester Takedown

[marlinman93]

My most recent email with Nick seemed pretty alert and well written. That was maybe a month ago? I had purchased a very unusual rack and pinion style rear scope mount and sent him pictures to identify it. He had never seen one, so I'm still trying to figure out who made it. But he jokingly told me I should write an update to his books, as he said he's too old and tired to do one. There's a huge number of scopes and sights not covered in Nick's 3 books on these topics.

[madsenshooter]

Oh, it was a long time ago that I was talking to him, glad he's gotten through that stage. I'd say post a pic, but the only references I have are Nick and Bob Bell. They don't know it all either, as I found out researching an old Noske scope not long ago. Darn nice little scope that in my opinion is much better than both the Alaskan and Texan.

[marlinman93]

This is the scope mount. No markings anywhere beyond elevation marks.

[texassako]

I still kick myself for not buying a Niedner Remington Hepburn that was local. I did not know how I would have shot it since I did not cast yet, and that was the main reason I did not stretch the budget to get it. It was in his proprietary .25 Cal. jacketed breach seat cartridge. These days I might even find someone who could make me a swage die set for it.

[marlinman93]

I still kick myself for not buying a Niedner Remington Hepburn that was local. I did not know how I would have shot it since I did not cast yet, and that was the main reason I did not stretch the budget to get it. It was in his proprietary .25 Cal. jacketed breach seat cartridge. These days I might even find someone who could make me a swage die set for it.

These days companies like Montana Bullet Works will cast you about anything you want! I know a fella who wanted .326" bullets for his .32-40 Hepburn with a large bore. He contacted MBW about buying a mold and sending it to them. They told him if he'd agree to buy 500 bullets they'd buy the mold and cast them up for him.

I've never heard of anyone breech seating jacketed bullets? Guess I need to do some more research on Nidener's use of breech seating jacketed bullets!

My Hepburn Match B has a huge .327" bore, and I can't shoot fixed ammo in it. I opened up the base band on an 8mm mold to .328" and had Jerry Cleave build me a breech seating tool so I could shoot it.

[madsenshooter]

I'm not finding any images that'd help in IDing your mount marlinman93. What does the lever-like thing on the bottom do? The mount resembles a Malcolm I saw on a pistol, but I couldn't see enough of that one for me to say that yours might be one.

[marlinman93]

The lever locks the elevation to keep it in place once it's set.
Not a Malcolm, as I have old Malcolm flyers and it's nothing they made.

[madsenshooter]

Well, I got to take the forearm off, and took the rifle down today. 1082 was the number on the barrel, so made in 1933. There were interrupted threads in the receiver, but like I said above, not on the barrel shank. It's simply a 1910 made Winchester takedown with Niedner heavy barrel made 3 years after the first Hornet ammunition became available. We cleaned the dust out of the barrel and shot a couple rounds of PPU 22 Hornet. Brass didn't blow out to any sort of improved configuration. Windage is way off, it needs boresighted. That's for another day, it was cold and windy. The barrel looked to be in great shape internally.

[marlinman93]

Can't wait to hear how it shoots when weather permits! I've never owned a Niedner gun, so no idea how well they can shoot. I've read a fair amount of Niedner's writings, and stories from owners in modern time. Lots of gorgeous complete guns came from Niedner's shop in Dowagiac!

[madsenshooter]

Going by the numbers found by Petrov, it appears there were only 999 barrels with the single line stamp that came out of the Dowagiac shop from 1930-1940. I too am anxious to get it bore sighted and do some work off the bench with it. The PPU ammo is probably not the best in the world, but I'll see what the rifle thinks of it. It'd be nice to know how the rifle was configured when it left Winchester, but I'm not paying for that info from the Cody Museum.

[marlinman93]

If you can find someone near you who is a member of the Cody Museum, they can call in and get a "yellow sheet" which is simply an email with the info on it. They are free to members vs. paying for a printed letter.

[madsenshooter]

Interesting, but I don't know of anyone around these parts. I'm a bit of a lone wolf.

[madsenshooter]

The J. Stevens Arms and Tool Company scope dates to around 1911, according to Stroebel. Certainly pre-1916 as the name was changed to J. Stevens Arms Co. at that time. It's a #141 of around 3.5X. Needs some TLC, but I think I can see good enough through it as is for a little testing. It is for sure a regular .22 Hornet. In the database Petrov kept of firearms he'd ran across, there was mention of only one regular Hornet, and Michael had a question mark behind that. Found that in some discussion about another cartridge on doublegunshop forum.

[marlinman93]

As with many parts made by Stevens and other companies, the rollstamps did not always change when catalogs, or other things were changed. Because of stock built up, and expense of making a new rollstamp, often old rollstamps were used for many years after a change.
Marlin used the "Model 1893" rollstamp until after WWI even though the catalogs changed the designation on the top tang in images in 1905.
Nick relied on catalogs, or dates of mfg. listed in written documents for his estimate of when scopes were made. Your scope may well be before 1916, but it could also be post WWI and still carry that rollstamp.
When Lyman bought them out in 1929 they immediately assembled and sold all Stevens marked parts, and used Lyman markings on the smaller lineup of models they continued making.

[madsenshooter]

It says patent pending, so I was looking for the patent application last night and didn't find it. The approx date goes well with a 1910 made receiver. I won't know the rest of the story until I find out how it left Winchester. I'll guess someone had a blackpowder round, maybe the 22 WCF, and wanted a barrel suitable for the smokeless Hornet, but that's just a WAG.

[marlinman93]

Tough to tie a date of the Winchester build date with a Stevens scope. Especially so with the Niedner barrel work. Likely the scope went on after Niedner did the barrel, as it's likely older than the Niedner work. Guessing someone had it, or bought it and installed it on the Win. when the Niedner work was done.
I have a Ballard #3 made in 1890 in .22LR. It was sent to Stevens and rebored to Stevens' proprietary .25 Stevens RF, and marked under the forearm, "Re-bored by J. Stevens Arms Co.". It also has a full length Stevens scope, and guessing the scope was purchased at the same time it was reworked to .25 Stevens RF. But it's just a guess they happened at the same time, as there's no way for me to really know.