AO Niedner barreled 1885 Winchester Takedown

[madsenshooter]

I got some pics to share with you single shot fans. One rare bird! I have an old packrat friend that comes up with firearms related stuff for me upon occasion. In his travels he found an older lady that wanted to sell "grandpa's shotgun". Grandpa's shotgun turned out to be a Winchester 1885 Lo Wall Takedown rifle made by AO Niedner and complete with J Stevens #141 scope. Barrel is 28" long, scope 24.25". It appears to be a 22 Hornet, but could be Niedner's blown out version. Barrel diameter at the muzzle is .797, so it is no lightweight rifle. Besides the takedown feature, it has an adjustable trigger that is adjusted well! Once I got digging around online to find out more about it, I came to realize, it was an honor to have handled it! Good news is, I'm getting ammo for the guy and will get to shoot it too! I'll be back with more pics, I have to clear some old ones out of my library.

[earlmck]

Oh wow! I'd sure like to see a "grandpa's shotgun" like that come my way. What a treasure.

[Bent Ramrod]

Wow. Color me envious.

Niedner had a proprietary Baby Magnum that was (IIRC) something like a .218 Mashburn Bee. But no doubt he made up a lot of Hornets as well. Unfortunately, Michael Petrov, the Guru of all things Neidner-related, has passed on. He’d have been delighted to see that, and probably have background info, too.

I never find any Little Old Ladies like that.

[madsenshooter]

Me too! He gave the old lady a pretty good sum, going on things that I've told him about old scopes and such. According to Stroebel, the scope alone is worth up to $1500! Hard to say what the whole shebang might bring on auction, but it isn't going there until I get to play with it some! Yes, much of what I was able to discover about the rifle was due to Petrov posts. I've checked a lot of possible cartridge dimensions, without doing a chamber cast, the two possibles, it appears, are the Hornet or Niedner's version, which of course a standard Hornet would blow out to. There were no markings on the rifle to indicate chambering. I found some Niedner brass online, the folks who made it managed to misspell his name on the headstamp!

[OlDeuce]

That is one cool find!! the Repop Companies should offer their singles in a takedown for guys like us !!!!! I'd buy barrels all day long just so I would have
1 of each LoL Great Find !!!!

Ol Deuce

[WALLNUTT]

Whew! That one looks to be in great condition. Takedowns are neat but get pricey as it's best to have a forend and scope for each barrel.

[Bigslug]

"Grandpa's. . .SHOTGUN???"

"Well Ma'am. . .I typically only pay about $50 for an H&R Topper or an old Stevens. Your granddad was clearly a man of good taste, but single shots are hard to move - all the kids want a repeater these days. But I'll tell you what; dove season is coming up and quail season is right behind that. I can usually find some poor fellow who wants to do right by his son and buy him his first. . .hunting gun around that time of year. How does $75 for that. . . 350 gauge sound? "

I'll grant that knowledge is not something we're born with, however. . .

[madsenshooter]

We haven't completely removed the forearm yet. The screw you can see at the back is something of a mystery so far. There's only a quarter inch hole behind it, and a chamber that runs up to the forearm screw. It's not for storing anything with that small a hole. Perhaps it's a way to add some weight by pouring in bird shot, but I don't think it needs any more weight! The takedown mechanism is pretty simple, I'll get some closer pics for those of you mechanically inclined. A switch barrel would be nice! I'm with you bigslug, I'd have been trying to walk away with it for $100 tops! Collector type arms are few and far between here in Upper Appalachia, most folks could only afford the H&Rs or Stevens.

[Bigslug]

We haven't completely removed the forearm yet. The screw you can see at the back is something of a mystery so far.

Now that you mention it, that is a puzzle. On a solid frame 1885, there's the big leaf spring under the forend that ties into. . . the lever as I recall. Gonna have to get that done another way on a takedown. Hmmmmm. . .

[madsenshooter]

Looking at schematics I can find online for the 1885, I see what you mean. I guess Niedner found some other way. The lever has to be open in order to work the disassembly button, that's about all I know. There is only one screw in the middle of the forearm. Where the front screw I see in schematics would be, he put an ebony filler. I didn't note any repair on a rear hole, but who knows, he may have made the entire forearm. It's going to be an interesting study for me. God forbid I should lose or break any parts!

Perhaps it would be best to do nothing with it, last thing I'd need to do is bugger up a screw!

[WALLNUTT]

There is no spring under my forend. Only one screw holds it to the barrel. There is a small latch that slides forward allowing the barrel to turn. Be sure to open the action before turning the barrel to avoid damage to the extractor. The forearm is the only thing that keeps the small latch from sliding off and losing the detent spring and plunger. Guess how I know.

[madsenshooter]

Thanks for that advice Wallnutt. So far it's still there, though I know we've had the latch pointing down during our disassembly. With an individual doing the making, perhaps he improved things as he went along and figured out a way to retain it. I wonder if could sell the system to the Japanese so they could make takedowns? The little latch on this one won't go unless you open the action. Could be, as you say, it is bearing on the extractor or blocked by some other part of the mechanism.

[samari46]

Could possibly be a coil spring action as the takedown feature doesn't work with the older style leaf type hammer spring that is attached to the underside of the barrel. In any event that is some heavy barrel and takedown low wall. Frank

[Old-Win]

What you have is a coil spring takedown low wall with a single set trigger. Everything looks Winchester to me. If you're talking about the large screw at the rear of the forearm, don't mess with it. That screw is an adjustment screw that keeps the barrel and receiver tight. You use it as the receiver and barrel wear down from use and keeps it tight with the receiver. The barrel has an interrupted thread, in other words once you move the latch open you give it a 1/4 turn and then the two pieces should pull apart. I don't know about the other hole that you talking about. If you could post a picture of it that would be great. As far as the inletted piece of ebony, all Winchester 85's had that in the forearm. It was a standard part of the production but maybe there's something there I'm not seeing in the pictures. Nice find, your very lucky.

[madsenshooter]

Thank you Old-Win, the information is appreciated, as obviously I don't know beans about it! No interrupted thread, we had to turn the barrel all the way out and the threads went all the way around the stub. Course in order to rotate the barrel and action to separate them we had to take the scope off. In retrospect, I realize we probably could have moved it forward far enough to allow us to turn the barrel out without the action hitting the scope. There was the large screw at the back of the forearm, and there was a small screw alongside it that locked the large one. It'll be a few days before I get back to it. Keep the info coming gentlemen, I'm learning! Here's one part that isn't Winchester, sorry I didn't catch it all:

[marlinman93]

The gun is a coil spring action, as all Winchester 1885's were if they were takedown. The takedown wasn't offered on the flat mainspring guns. As Old Win mentioned, this is a single set trigger, so pushing the trigger forward sets it, and then it will drop with very slight pressure on the trigger when set.
It appears Niedner decided to not use the interrupted thread feature that was such a nice feature on the 1885 and other Winchester takedowns. My guess is he felt it might not be as accurate, so made his threads full like a solid frame.
The 1885 never use 2 forearm screws, and the "2nd screw" you see in diagrams is likely under the forearm retaining the mainspring on a flat mainspring gun, not a coil spring gun.
I own and collect a lot of vintage scopes. I own a few of the old Stevens long scopes, and wish they were worth $1500!! The last one I bought was less than half that amount, and is a minty example, with rings and bases.
But it's a gorgeous gun, and all original Winchester beyond the Niedner barrel and Stevens scope! Well worth many times the purchase price.

[madsenshooter]

Ok, let me get this straight. It was made by Winchester, except for the barrel? That makes sense. Niedner's use of the uninterrupted thread is normal. I didn't think to look in the receiver and see if those threads were interrupted. If they aren't, would that mean that Niedner made a regular rifle into a takedown? The set trigger is neat, it's pretty light without setting, can't wait to try that feature. Yea, I often thought Stroebel was way off on his value estimates, maybe I could sell it to him for the big money! I appreciate your expert comment! The serial # shows the receiver was made in 1910. I'll have to get that forearm off and see if Niedner left his number on the barrel. Petrov posted a list of numbers that Niedner used on his barrels so I can at least figure out when the barrel was produced. Maybe it's a Hornet barrel made to replace a 22 WCF barrel. I'll look more carefully in the Winchester markings, see if there is any indication as to chambering there. I can tell the rifle has stood up in a corner for many years, the front end of the scope, and the front end of the barrel have a lot dust in them, but the rear end of the barrel is clean. I see I could get more info from the Cody Museum for $40 or $80. I'll let my packrat friend mull that over.

[gbehrman]

Hello. Niedner made plenty of a necked down 32-20 called it "Baby Niedner". My father and uncle both worked at Niedner's in the 30'S and both made barrels. Initials of barrel maker may appear on bottom of barrel and some were dated. I have the list of Niedner's serial numbers and some of the people who ordered them.

[marlinman93]

I would be willing to bet that Niedner started with a takedown 1885, and simply put his barrel on it. I'd also bet it's not a Winchester barrel, as they have plenty of markings on top and bottom of their barrels to indicate Win. mfg.
Wont be surprised if the receiver has the interrupted threads, even though Niedner didn't use them on his barrel. But if it doesn't have those threads in the receiver, then you are correct in thinking it was made into a takedown by Niedner.

I've bought and sold with Nick over the years, and he's often paid more for scopes, sights, etc. than I could get at local shows. So I figured he must be selling things to people who were willing to pay more than the average guy? He used to send a quarterly letter with a list of what he had for sale. But once he got to selling on Ebay he ended the letter, and I never bought from him again. Or sold to him either.

[madsenshooter]

The Baby Niedner has a larger rim, .408". It's a Niedner barrel for sure. I missed getting all the rollmark above. I've had some contact with Nick too. At the time it seemed to me like he was a fellow who had given up, it was almost like talking to a drunk that was at rock bottom, via email. Then he got an offer for the second edition of his book. I'll get to look at the rifle more, and try out the Hornet ammo I have coming next weekend. My friend is going to be very happy with the information I've found so far! Thanks to all!