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Thread: .30 Mauser and 7.62x25 take the same reloading dies?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master DonMountain's Avatar
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    .30 Mauser and 7.62x25 take the same reloading dies?

    Many years ago I purchased a Mauser "Broomhandle" in .30 Mauser, and reloaded converted .223 brass with a set of .30 Mauser dies and some reaming. I also bought a CZ 52 in 7.62x25 and always wondered if cases for this round could also be reloaded with the same .30 Mauser dies (RCBS). From a recent thread discussing these two rounds I have been considering purchasing the proper Starline brass and getting back into shooting these two firearms, knowing that they take different pressure loads to operate correctly.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master NoAngel's Avatar
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    The internal dimensions of the brass are different but the outside are pretty much the same. They are NOT the same though.
    You could probably get away with firing .30 tokarev cases with .30 mauser loads in a .30 mauser. You will regret the opposite as pressures are WAY higher on the tokarev.

    Coincidentally, the WONDERFUL .30 Badger is made by using either of those two die sets. I load mine with a set of Lee 7,62x25 dies.



    Please be careful keeping these two rounds together. They should be clearly marked and stored separate. The C96 is a great pistol but could easily turn into a frag grenade with a Tokarev load. Maybe not....but it ain't worth the gamble.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I have a set of LEE dies for the 7.62x39 Tokarev. With that said I have more then one pistol in this caliber and they are different brands and country origins. Ammo loaded with the LEE dies doesn't fit all of them. I understand LEE dies in this caliber as having a 30 Mauser sizing die. I know when you have all three of dies, that being the 7.62 Tokarev, 30 Mauser, and 30 Luger dies from LEE that all three share some componants that are marked 30 Mauser. Of course the 30 Luger sizer die is different from the other two.

    You're absolutely never shoot Tokarev ammo or Tokarev loads in 30 Mauser brass in the any pistol chambered for the 30 Mauser

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    I own a Broomhandle with a small gouge in the chamber wall. It would never fire more than 2 consecutive shots before jamming due to the brass extruding into the gouge so solidly that extractor would hop over the fired cartridge's rim, leaving the case in the chamber and the next cartridge would jam up behind it. Had to punch the fired case out with a cleaning rod. I received various opinions on what to do about the gouge, but none of the advice seemed practical. Then I acquired a 7.62.25mm Tokarev and got the idea to try some of the surplus steel cased Chinese ammo in the Broomhandle. I utilized an inertia bullet puller and dumped the powder, then reloaded them with a Broomhandle charge from a manual. Eureka! It ripped off two 10-round stripper clips of reloads without a bobble. The steel cases just had a shiny spot at the location of the gouge, but no discernable extrusion of the metal. Still own the pistol, haven't fired it for years now. I used Lee .30 Mauser dies to reseat the pulled bullets.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    The 7.62x25 Tokarev chamber is about .03" shorter than the 7.62 Mauser.

    Given wartime sloppy tolerances in the PPsh41 and PPsh43 it probably doesn't make a difference, but Starline warns against using .30 Mauser brass in the 762x25 Tokarev pistols because the case mouth impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter chamber and tears case necks off. This has been my experience shooting WRA WW2-era .30 Mauser in my TT33.
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  6. #6
    well the LEE die set for 7.62 Tokarev has a die in it that is labeled 30LGR/MSR for 30 Luger/Mauser. so id say they are close enough for the die set to work for all three..

    and what load did you use for the CZ-52? the listed data i got here in my Lyman #48 manual the max load using Unique will not function the action enough to eject with a 86gr FMJ. it will function enough to cock the action but not enough to eject the brass and strip another cartridge off the mag.. it seems like every manual i can find list the 30 Mauser and the 30 Tokarev as the same thing and they appear to be seriously downloaded and will not function the CZ like it should.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    The 7.62x25 Tokarev chamber is about .03" shorter than the 7.62 Mauser.

    Given wartime sloppy tolerances in the PPsh41 and PPsh43 it probably doesn't make a difference, but Starline warns against using .30 Mauser brass in the 762x25 Tokarev pistols because the case mouth impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter chamber and tears case necks off. This has been my experience shooting WRA WW2-era .30 Mauser in my TT33.
    Yes I agree with what you are saying. I always like to have the correct brass or have other brass that is close, but sized in the appropiate die. In this case the LEE dies are too generic. I didn't want to pay RCBS what they want for their Tokarev dies. On a good number of my pistols the LEE sized stuff works, but then there are others that don't. I have one Tokarev that you can't load a fat enough bullet to agree with the grooves because the chamber neck is too tight. I just don't mess with that pistol much. I don't use any 30 Mauser brass in my 7.62x25 and in fact don't have any.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I use the Lee 7.62x25 dies with Starline brass, Federal 200 primer, 5.2-5.3 grs. Alliant Bullseye, Accurate 31-100T sized .311, runs in Cz52, TT33, PPsh41, PPsh43.

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    Last edited by Outpost75; Today at 11:54 AM.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master DonMountain's Avatar
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    Ok, Thanks everybody for your help on this matter. After doing some additional research I discovered in one of my own manuals, the Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" 4th Edition has on page 236 the title "7.62 Tokarev/30 Mauser". So, I guess from this information I can conclude that they are in fact the same size cases and use the same reloading dies. I have reloaded and fired the Mauser Broomhandle a long time ago when factory ammunition was available for it. And I purchased J-bullets for it. And I think I only paid $10 for it at a yard sale 40 years ago. So, if it blows up I guess it isn't any great loss. Although its an awful nice looking one that this elderly German couple's parents had brought from Germany with them before the war.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonMountain View Post
    Ok, Thanks everybody for your help on this matter. After doing some additional research I discovered in one of my own manuals, the Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" 4th Edition has on page 236 the title "7.62 Tokarev/30 Mauser". So, I guess from this information I can conclude that they are in fact the same size cases and use the same reloading dies. I have reloaded and fired the Mauser Broomhandle a long time ago when factory ammunition was available for it. And I purchased J-bullets for it. And I think I only paid $10 for it at a yard sale 40 years ago. So, if it blows up I guess it isn't any great loss. Although its an awful nice looking one that this elderly German couple's parents had brought from Germany with them before the war.
    I believe we concluded here they are slightly different cases, but often you get away with using the same reloading dies. If you do a lengthly internets search on this matter you will find that many people have trouble doing that. I feel that in either cartridge if your pistol has a chamber cut on the mininum side that you may have problems. Remember that many of the pistols from for these two calibers are old and worn inaddition to being made many decades ago when tolerances weren't kept as close as today. The Broomhandle is a very old pistol. Some reloading die manufacturers have the dies sets for these two cartridges that are two different sets. Anyways the important thing to remember and do is do not load Tokarev level loads to fire in a 30 Mauser or use factory or military Tokarev ammo in 30 Mausers.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    4.6 Grains of Titegroup with a 93 Grain cast boolit works well in my old warhorse..........I'm using 30 Mauser dies.
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  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
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    When I was researching for dies for my C96s, I found a set that listed both calibers. I don't remember the company, but I believe I saw it on Midway. Anyway, I use reformed .223 brass and a set of Lee Tokarev dies for both (with the appropriate charge) without any problems.

  13. #13
    Boolit Mold
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    We have a WW1 broom handle and a Romanian Tokarev. I bought a set of dies for the Mauser cartridge because we think of it as the more valuable. I looked up the two cartridges in several of my manuals and chose a conservative load using AA#5 and a 110 grain cast boolit. I was pleasantly surprised to find the one load ran both pistols just fine. There were no undue pressure signs and no leading with good accuracy. That was the goal; one load to run them both without doing damage to either. We had some Mauser brass and purchased new starline Tokarev brass also. The broomhandle digests either while the Tokarev's shorter chamber chokes on the longer Mauser brass. My advice, for those that are looking for such, is be conservative and you should have lots of fun.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    GONRA's been there, done that.....
    Years ago, measured lottsa of both - military mfg. cartridges. (Commecrials don't count.)

    Authentic Tokarev cartridge case is maybe 1/2 mm shorter and head diameter is maybe .005 inch smaller.

    This stuff CAN show up when using "all Mauser dies/cases" in Tokarev chambers. (Sticks!)
    BUT MAYBE NOT - all depends how all the sloppy manufacturing tolerances +/- ADDED UP!

    Would like to see an Offical Soviet Arsenal Tokarev cartridge print to compare to Mauser specs.

    These days, its anybodies guess what commecial mfgs. do.
    For wot its worth, Starline 7.62x25 mm brass (sold as Tokarev) functions perfectly in my CZ52's.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check