New project gun ... Danish M1867 Rolling Block ...

[Reverend Al]

I guess I'll stick with .45-70 cases and tape them at the base ...

[curator]

The "electrical tape around the base fix" is a pretty good work-around if you can't get the correct brass. Keep .45-70 "trapdoor" level loads to be safe. Rolling blocks do not vent gas well if you have a case rupture. I shot my Dane for a few years before getting the correct cases, no problem. Annealing the .45-70 case mouths prior to fireforming helped with getting them concentric. Being an accomplished paper-patcher, I cut the tape on an angle so the ends butted perfectly with no over-lap. Once fire-formed I never sized these cases, I simply de-primed, re-primed, loaded powder, wad and bullet to shoot. Shooting bullets that thumb-seated with the slightest friction insured a good fit in the bore. Mine liked boolits of .462 to .463. If the slugs needed an extra .001" diameter, a coating of Lee Liquid Alox will often suffice and help keep the bullets from falling out of loaded cases, (remember the over powder wad or Dacron filler!)

[Hogpost]

Since 45-70 brass is almost 1/8" too short, I use StarLine 45-90 brass, shortened to the correct length. Verified my chamber length by chambering one piece of brass and trimming a bit, over & over, 'til the block just perfectly closed & locked. Length turned out to be 2.2", just like the theoretical original. Done this way, headspace questions are eliminated. The purpose of the tape wrap is not to "control" or reduce the swelling, but to keep the case concentric with the chamber. Without the wrap, you get a "guppy belly" swell.

I use brass striping tape, about 0.125 wide, from an art supply store, two wraps around the base up against the rim, being sure to not overlap the ends. This is only required on the first firing. Similarly, I flare the case mouth the first time enough that it slightly drags on chambering, thus assuring concentricity at the front end also. The result is perfect cases.

Both of mine like the Lyman .458-405-grain hollow base, although one prefers them as-cast. I seat to expose the front grease groove, thereby reducing the leade. Bullets just touch the load of 76 grains Schuetzen FFFG; this is a nice mild, clean, but effective and accurate load. I've taken several large feral pigs with the carbine. For hunting and field-plinking rounds, I use a 45-70 die set to crimp the bullets.

Great Danes are super rifles; have fun with yours!

[17nut]

Since 45-70 brass is almost 1/8" too short, I use StarLine 45-90 brass, shortened to the correct length. Verified my chamber length by chambering one piece of brass and trimming a bit, over & over, 'til the block just perfectly closed & locked. Length turned out to be 2.2", just like the theoretical original. Done this way, headspace questions are eliminated. The purpose of the tape wrap is not to "control" or reduce the swelling, but to keep the case concentric with the chamber. Without the wrap, you get a "guppy belly" swell.

I use brass striping tape, about 0.125 wide, from an art supply store, two wraps around the base up against the rim, being sure to not overlap the ends. This is only required on the first firing. Similarly, I flare the case mouth the first time enough that it slightly drags on chambering, thus assuring concentricity at the front end also. The result is perfect cases.

Both of mine like the Lyman .458-405-grain hollow base, although one prefers them as-cast. I seat to expose the front grease groove, thereby reducing the leade. Bullets just touch the load of 76 grains Schuetzen FFFG; this is a nice mild, clean, but effective and accurate load. I've taken several large feral pigs with the carbine. For hunting and field-plinking rounds, I use a 45-70 die set to crimp the bullets.

Great Danes are super rifles; have fun with yours!

Simply not so!
Danish 11.4x51R brass is @ 1/10" shorter than standard 45-70.
The fallasy that you have a 11.4x56 rifle is common but none the less false.
Please take a couple of minuts to read this:

Here is a resume i wrote some time ago to adress the confusion about chamber length:

Danish Rolling Blocks and chamber length confusion

The original Danish RB round was 11.4x41.5R rimfire. Load was 52grains in 1867 and changed to 60 grains of BP behind a 385 grains boolit.
Denmark ordered 20000 rifles from Remington to be delivered within 6 months. That backfired for Remington because Sheffield could not deliver enough barrels.
The Danes got to make their own RB’s without paying royalty as a result.
5 production lines was set up and each of them had a master gunsmith which was in charge of quality. Each smith had to manufacture his own set of Go-No Go gauges and have them certified by the factories master controller. This becomes important later!
All is well and from 1867 to 1878 @78500 RB’s are manufactured.
In 1884 the Danes start to develop a replacement for the RB and at the same time they start to ponder a way to modernise the RB’s. In 1896 they were officially converted to: Smokeless, centerfire and jacketed bullets.
And now comes problems in heaps falling on the arsenal, Because of the 5 different Go-No Go tools it is clear that bores range from 11.25mm~.443” to 11.75mm~.463”. You can’t design a standard round with jacketed and smokeless that will work within those ranges with any kind of accuracy and without huge variations in pressure. So a LARGE long throat is devised to size the bullets for the smaller bores.
That is why some Danes will chamber a 45-90 without problems and why the 11.4x56R thought exists.

In the development of the final cartridge choices in smokeless was dismal and experiments led to the 56mm cartridge. But that meant grinding down the hammer for chamber access and that was dismissed along with slower reloading of the rifle. Only 100 rifles were ever converted and they can be easily identified by the ground down hammer. Most/all were scrapped so the likelihood of hundreds of them popping up in the US is nill. You have a ”standard” 11.4x51R chamber.

Added:
When conversion was done in 1895 some metallurgic tests were made on barrel steel. It was found that the Sheffield steel barrels used by Remington was as originally specified but not as strong as the German Witten steel used in the Danish made rifles. That means the Remingtons are rated at a max. of 1200bar~17,4kpsi and the Danish ones marked ”Kjøbenhavns Tøihuus” are rated at a max. of 1600bar~23.2kpsi. In short do not use Trapdoor loads even if full length 45-70 (or longer) brass fits your chamber!

[Hogpost]

17Nut, your professed research and knowledge seem impressive, but permit me to present some conflicting facts:

1. I have two rifles now, and had a 3rd previously, that perfectly accept the shortened 45-90 cartridge as I described, such cartridge having been shortened as described to match the existing chamber. This is fact.

2. I have worked with two other gentlemen with precisely the same rifle type with the same chamber dimensions. This is also fact.

3. Buffalo Arms has been selling 11.7 x 56mm loaded ammunition for at least five years, probably more, made from modified .348 cases. Clearly it works well in hundreds of rifles around the country. People would not pay $2 per round if it did not work, and Buffalo would not continue making it if it did not sell. This too is fact.

4. If you peruse this forum on the subject, you will find a great many discussions, stretching back many years, on the same subject with experiences and conclusions similar to mine. While one cannot claim them all to be fact, it is unlikely that every one of those Cast Boolit members & posters are either liars or fools.

Thus, I suggest you review your sources; you might find amongst them the same guy that started the story of the Spanish 43 Reformado pre-dating the 43 Spanish round

[17nut]

First of i didnt say your cases wont fit, what i said was: You do not have a rifle with a 11.4x56R chamber!
Thats it, no more.
There was 100 rifles converted in the late mid 1890's and they were all (but a wery few) scrapped after the experiments. Thus it is impossible that hundreds has surfaced in The US of A, nothing more nothing less.

Because someone sells flat earth books doesnt mean that the globe is in fact flat, does it?

Now what i said to adress the long leade that misguides you to think the chamber is longer than what the arsenal cut is:

In 1884 the Danes start to develop a replacement for the RB and at the same time they start to ponder a way to modernise the RB’s. In 1896 they were officially converted to: Smokeless, centerfire and jacketed bullets.
And now comes problems in heaps falling on the arsenal, Because of the 5 different Go-No Go tools it is clear that bores range from 11.25mm~.443” to 11.75mm~.463”. You can’t design a standard round with jacketed and smokeless that will work within those ranges with any kind of accuracy and without huge variations in pressure. So a LARGE long throat is devised to size the bullets for the smaller bores.
That is why some Danes will chamber a 45-90 without problems and why the 11.4x56R thought exists.

You may not think so but i have all the material written in Denmark on the Danish RB and i have talked in length with some of the most knowledgeable persons in Denmark on this subject.

You may believe what you want, i'm just telling you the facts, no more no less.

[Hogpost]

Whatever, you just keep clutching your research in the face of actual physical reality. My pieces have all had a solid ridge on the chamber, corresponding to the longer 56mm cartridge, followed by a long leade; borne out by chamber casts of my own and others on this and other forums. It is that sharp solid ridge to which I trim my cases. Borne out also by so many others who use 45-90 and 348 cases to make ammunition in similar manner that fits perfectly and fires accurately, including ammunition manufactured and sold for years by a respected company.

In the meantime, we will continue to enjoy loading for, and shooting, these wonderful Danish rolling blocks with black powder loads and soft lead bullets. We probably have many more in this country than remain in yours; please thank your ancestors for these fine pieces.

[Reverend Al]

Basically sounds like what I had planned for. I have lots of .45-70 brass, including some short Hornady brass, but I also have a Kal Max case stretcher so can lengthen them as needed. I'll try the tape method to centre the cases on fire forming. For now it's a New Years project since we're out of town for the holidays.

[earshot]

I own one of these 1867 danish rollers a couple of years now. They are great rifles.I use .45-70 starline cases. After firing they are expanded a bit near the base.I re-size these cases only partly, leaving the 'hump' in place. I load with the 405 lee bullet unsized, Wano jagdpulver and the gun is an excellent shooter at 50m. Cases last well.
I shoot this rifle once every week at 50 metres and it is very accurate. Sometimes 10 shot groups come in at 2 inches from the standing positions.....Wish I had a shorter version as well.

[Engineer Bill]

Hello All,
I have one of the Danish rollers and enjoy it immensely. My question is What units do the sight gradations represent; yards? meters? Alens?
I'm working on duplicating the original load to work with the sight
Thanks
Engineer Bill

[texasnative46]

Reverend Al,

I too have an 1867 Danish RB (that was made at the Copenhagen Arsenal, converted to CF at some point in its life, refitted in 1896 & reissued thereafter.), which I fire with "taped base" 45-70 loads & .462 soft lead slugs, in front of BP or moderate amounts of 4198.

It shoots BEAUTIFULLY. - I couldn't be happier with my old Dane & plan to go Axis/hog hunting this Spring/Summer.
(Perhaps "Axis/feral hog thinning" is more truthful, IF we get to hunt in one particular area that wants the "invasive species" removed.)

Wishing a BLESSED week to you/yours, tex

[17nut]

Hello All,
I have one of the Danish rollers and enjoy it immensely. My question is What units do the sight gradations represent; yards? meters? Alens?
I'm working on duplicating the original load to work with the sight
Thanks
Engineer Bill

They were first converted from alen (yards) to meters in 1882 and then changed to suit the then new smokeless load in 1896.
They tried very hard to make the smokeless cartridge fit the sights (to save money) but ultimately powder were to poor and pressures to high. So new sights it was to suit the cartridge.

So it is in meters.

Here is data on the original 1896 cartridge:


25gram~385grains
476m/s~1562fps
Max. pressure 1600bar~23.2kpsi

[wellfedirishman]

These are great rifles. I have a couple (one original rifle, one cut down carbine I picked off GunBroker a few years ago). Both shoot well with Trapdoor loads.

Solo Rolling block rifle
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...erted-to-45-70

Pair of Rolling blocks rifle and cut-down carbine
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Block-sporters

I cleaned up the muzzle on the carbine and it shoots way better now than in that range report.