Savage 10ML-II explosions?

[ourway77]

Human error 99% rifle malfunction 1% Savage did extensive testing of their muzzle loaders and recommended only certain powders. People tried to push the limit duplex loads etc. I have shot the Savage more than I can count w/o any problems. I now shoot a Remington/Brux 45 caliber 70 grains of IMR-4198 with various 250 to 300 grain bullets. I have watched many video's on shooting these Muzzle Loaders and yet to see only a few stress the use of a witness mark. Proven tested rifles don't blow up on their own people blow them up by unsafe negligent loading Good Luck and Good Hunting.

[Geezer in NH]

Why was he "hip shooting" it?

Because that is how newbie shooters thinks is cool I bet.

Many years ago when they came out with the smokeless powder ML I knew it would come back to bite.

[snowwolfe]

Because that is how newbie shooters thinks is cool I bet.

Many years ago when they came out with the smokeless powder ML I knew it would come back to bite.

He wasn't a newbie to shooting. My guess is he had at least 25 years hunting and gun experience. But now all you people who were not even there, or knew anything about why it did blow, are now automatically experts as to the cause.
It wasn't just my friend who had one of these guns explode on him. Go back and read the article posted by the OP.

[Geezer in NH]

He wasn't a newbie to shooting. My guess is he had at least 25 years hunting and gun experience. But now all you people who were not even there, or knew anything about why it did blow, are now automatically experts as to the cause.
It wasn't just my friend who had one of these guns explode on him. Go back and read the article posted by the OP.

Then make some explanation why choose to shoot from the hip.

Seriously if it was to protect himself he failed. Total armature time IMHO friends like that will get hurt and possibly hurt others.

When in doubt test firing is done remotely so NOBODY gets hurt.

25 years experience in ignorance of safety. Yup get mad at me for saying the facts.

[snowwolfe]

Then make some explanation why choose to shoot from the hip.

Seriously if it was to protect himself he failed. Total armature time IMHO friends like that will get hurt and possibly hurt others.

When in doubt test firing is done remotely so NOBODY gets hurt.

25 years experience in ignorance of safety. Yup get mad at me for saying the facts.

I am not going to make any explanation as to why he shot from the hip. Many of you are quick to pounce on the messenger in your attempts to discredit what you don't what to hear or disagree with.

[bdicki]

I have one and really like it. There are many destroyed guns from reloads. Every shot from these guns are reloads.

[ourway77]

I had one and have shot it more than most, I shot 65 Grains of Re-7 with 250 Bullets I killed numerous deer with it. I was wondering with more and more Savage guns blowing up could it be that the rifle weakens with age? I realize most are human error. I almost did the nasty once but thank goodness after talking to some one I double loaded it If it wasn't for me checking and seeing my witness mark was far off It would have been an accident. I now shoot a custom build. Be safe Lou

[gunlover]

I had a friend tell me he had heard that some stainless steels are not as hard and tough as the regular steels used in firearm like chrome moly. Have any of you heard something like that? I don't know what to make of that rifle blowing up.

[M-Tecs]

SS has a lower hoop strength particularly when cold. Krieger used to state that on their web site. Not sure if it's still there.

[Squeeze]

Its not steel fatigue. How often do you hear of this in centerfire? Its in field handloading, without case size powder limitations, lack of focus and ramrod witness marks. Smokeless muzzleloading has no room for error. You just don't have double load, or short start problems with cased ammo. Its not a new to ML world kind of toy. just like a new to driving kid behind the wheel of a top fuel dragster. Its just not for everyone, and 90% of the internet "blown barrel" failures are intentional, done by disgruntled ex "pro staffers" out for the bad publicity. Probably 99.999% user error, and .001% equipment failure.

[Motor]

I've been reloading for over 30 years. I read this thread with interest because I was curious about the smokeless MLs.

I believe Squeeze hits the nail on the head. I too ML hunt and have been shooting ML's longer than I've been reloading. Black Powder and BP subs are very forgiving when it comes to powder charges. I obviously haven't tried it but am told you basically can't overload a muzzleloader with real black powder it will simply just make a bigger fire ball.

I do know for sure if you load a smokeless cartridge even 10% over the recommended maximum charge weight you'll likely see signs of over pressure. I can only imagine how easy it would be to over charge a smokeless power ML.

Motor

[waksupi]

Something to consider. Many of the inlines, and imports particularly, sell for less than the cost of a custom barrel for a traditional muzzle loader.

[Moleman-]

If you buy a new muzzle loader for the most part you get the opportunity to be the first person to fire it. Ever. Every Savage ML on the other hand gets proof tested before they leave the factory. The actions were also destruction tested to 126Kpsi and held.


from this article http://www.randywakeman.com/ballltd18.htm


"Did you know that EVERY SINGLE SAVAGE 10ML-II made today has a 100% proofed barrel? No other muzzleloader available today can lay claim to that. No Savage 10ML-II leaves the factory without a barrel that is proofed to in excess of 46,000 PSI. Not just a test sampling of barrels are so proofed, ALL OF THEM ARE. Also, every single Savage 10ML-II is also test fired prior to shipment. No other muzzleloader made today can make that claim either. The Savage 10ML-II has been destructive tested with massive charges of 4227 to bring the piezoelectric radial transducer to 129,000 PSI ! Stocks were broken, recoil lugs bent, but the barreled actions survived-- both intact and functional. For the record, the standard Savage 10ML-II service load is from approximately 33,400 to 36,000 PSI with a 250 grain saboted projectile. Always follow manufacturer's recommendations, as per the Savage Manual."

Squeeze and others have really hit upon what the issue is. I can't fit enough of certain correct use powders in my centerfire rifles to blow them up. Some you can, but for the most part if you try to fit a double charge of 4895 in a 308, 30-06 or 4198 in a 444 marlin it is going to massively overflow. I think we all know of someone who adds a "little more" powder when they reload and ML's are no different. You could for example fill the entire barrel of a MLII up with red dot if you wanted to make sure to blow it up. The evidence for a lot of the blow ups points to a double charge or a double loading (powder-bullet, powder-bullet) which will pretty much blow up any centerfire smokeless rifle. The proper use of witness marks can save your bacon and show if the shot column length is correct or if you have a double charge, double loading, bullet off powder ect which are all dangerous. When teaching my son to shoot his muzzle loader for the first time I relayed the stories of civil war rifles being found with numerous loadings in them. I also showed him how to use the ramrod and mark a standard load and figure out why the ramrod is sticking out too far before pulling the trigger. I make him check the ramrod before and after loading his rifle the same as I do. Little need to do it when you just shot the rifle, but it can't hurt and is a good habit when getting the ML out for the season to check that there wasn't a charge left in it from last year. I also gave him a bullet puller, showed him how to use it and told him not to be too proud to use it and to never try to "shoot out" a load that didn't closely match the ramrod witness mark.

[NSB]

Its not steel fatigue. How often do you hear of this in centerfire? Its in field handloading, without case size powder limitations, lack of focus and ramrod witness marks. Smokeless muzzleloading has no room for error. You just don't have double load, or short start problems with cased ammo. Its not a new to ML world kind of toy. just like a new to driving kid behind the wheel of a top fuel dragster. Its just not for everyone, and 90% of the internet "blown barrel" failures are intentional, done by disgruntled ex "pro staffers" out for the bad publicity. Probably 99.999% user error, and .001% equipment failure.

Absolutely the best answer so far. Anyone can buy and shoot one of these and know NOTHING about reloading, pressure, or anything else reloaders should understand. To some of those people who bought these guns they thin a little bit more powder might be better, and all smokeless powder is "about the same". I'm afraid that many think, "if some's good,more's better, and too much is just right". Don't assume that the people who bought and shoot these guns actually know what they're doing. Heck, we have enough "experienced" reloaders who don't know all they should.