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Thread: Savage 10ML-II explosions?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Savage 10ML-II explosions?

    I just came across this today.
    "Gun maker's exploding rifle leaves trail of injured hunters"
    Here is the link:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.304f2cfe1372

    If you have any trouble with the link, just google the quoted line. It is an AP story and a lot of papers have it.
    Amazing that a stainless steel ML barrel would blow up.
    Anyone else know anything about this?


  2. #2
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    I just read the story. This gun by Savage is made for smokeless powder. Smokeless powder and muzzle loaders just don't do well together. That is all I know.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I owned one of these for many years. I can tell you for a fact that there is a dedicated group of shooters who have made it their life's work to squeeze every bit of velocity out of these things by using non-recommended powders, sabotless loads, booster charges, etc, etc, etc. You can view their shared comments on dougsmessageboard.com. I too experimented with my gun and even rebarreled it to a 45cal so I could shoot it without sabots or use it with sabots as a 40cal. Some of the people doing this are getting close to 3,000 fps with some of their loads. To date, I'm not aware of even one of this group having a gun explode or having any of them get injured by following the guidelines they have developed. I'm not saying that Savage couldn't have made a defective gun, I'm saying that based on the knowledge that there are a group of Savage ML2 shooters out there experimenting, someone may have taken some liberties with their own gun thinking it was safe to substitute powders and/or powder charges in their own gun. FWIW, Savage does not recommend using heavy bullets in their Savage ML2 rifles. They strongly suggest never using a bullet weighing over 300 grains.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    I've got one, and put 20 rounds or so through it this past Sunday. it's very accurate and performs great even with a starting load. Before I shot mine for the first time I looked through many of the failed rifle reports and found many of them were caused by user error. Some didn't have a clear reason in the short article or post as to why they failed so I cannot rule out a design or metal issue. Muzzle loading black powder guns in general are very forgiving of varying charge and bullet weights where as a smokeless muzzle loader is more like a cartridge rifle where you should stick to proven loads and weigh out the charges like a rifle and not use a volumetric powder measure that you'd use for black powder. My Son was shooting my old Knight inline along side me. He was using 80gr of 777 and a 240gr xtp. The rifle he was using is rated up to 120 gr of powder. The guy shooting next to us was using 150gr of 777 pellets in his Traditions. I'm fairly sure if I put 120gr or 150gr of N110 in my MLII and pulled the trigger it would end badly. I think alot of the issues have been from people thinking that they can vary components with a smokelss ML like they have with a black powder gun.
    Last edited by Moleman-; 12-05-2017 at 06:10 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Darwin has a big role in this.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    Old saying:
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    One empty of experiences, the other full of luck.
    The trick in life is to fill your empty bag with experiences before you run out of luck.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Washington post publishes a hit piece to strike fear into anyone that shooting a gun will explode at any moment?

    I just can't believe WaPo would do that.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I hadn't realized they were made for smokeless powder until I googled the gun. I didn't think black powder could do it. No telling what actually happened.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

    Savage knows about these issues. Why do you think they stopped making them?
    Tennessee

  10. #10
    Boolit Master



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    Low sales is the reason they stop selling them. I have an original ml1 and an ml2. They are as strong as any modern large bore centerfire bolt gun. Compared to blackpowder and bp subs smokeless ml's have a smaller tolerance for people doing really stupid things.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master


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    The vent liner when worn is the problem. There are a bunch of other rifles out there that shoot smokeless. I have a few friends that had H&R rifles made into them. They stub a shotgun barrel. And they are extremely accurate. You just have to watch out for the plastic fouling. They can get about 7-8 shots and then have to be cleaned of the plastic.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    if I recall, the official reason savage stopped production was low sales, and that the breech plugs had a rather short life span. In the past I saw 20-30 shots per breech plug before the threads were to shot for safety reasons.

    Also the fact they are also usable with black powder always raised the issue of "gee whillickers, did timmy use his black powder measure with H110 by accident?"

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowwolfe View Post
    I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

    Savage knows about these issues. Why do you think they stopped making them?
    It's not impossible to have a double charge, or even a triple charge. It's up to the person who's loading the gun to get it right. As far as "why did they quit making them", it was low sales. Savage came out a few years ago with another round of these guns being offered (in blue synthetic only) and they just didn't sell all that well. The market for them was saturated. Most people won't spend the money on a gun of this quality, preferring to buy a lot cheaper guns at big box stores. Same reason they sell cheap shotguns at a hundred to one ratio....most people simply don't want to spend the money. The vent liners would wear out on these guns and there were a lot of aftermarket suppliers making replacements at very affordable prices. You'd get forty shots out of the Savage vent liner and a couple of hundred out of the aftermarket. For most people, one spare would be a lifetime supply. I think I have eight on hand. Unfortunately, no one wants to take responsibility for their mistakes or acts of stupidity. It's a lot easier to blame someone else....and then sue them.

  14. #14
    Banned - Charles1990/Eldon/Happy Warrior/Red Jackson/Henry VIII/Mr Humble
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    anti gun left wing newspaper carries and anti gun story. Gee whiz I am shocked !

  15. #15
    Boolit Master pmer's Avatar
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    You're suppose to have around 25 pounds of force when seating the boolit. I wonder if any of these problems come from the primer pushing the charge apart from the boolit and then causing a obstructed barrel.

    I wonder what Snowwolf's friend cleaned before he put it on his hip? Did he take the load out of the gun, clean, load then shoot?
    Recent cast boolit hunts:
    doe, Accurate Molds 45-300G in a 50 cal. muzzle loader
    buck & doe, Accurate Molds 36-225AG Model 94AE
    Russian Boar Accurate Molds 46-405A Marlin 45-70

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowwolfe View Post
    I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

    Savage knows about these issues. Why do you think they stopped making them?
    [QUOTE=snowwolfe;4222587]I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

    We will never know for sure but because he wasn't a stranger to the rifle is not much of a guarantee that he couldn't make a mistake. There have been several shotguns blow up on the trap range (or hunting situations) owned by very experienced shooters who shoot thousands of rounds per year and load their own shells. In the vast majority of cases it is because there was either a barrel obstruction or they had mistakenly overloaded with a double or triple dose of powder. Mistakes happen to anyone without he/she even knowing a mistake was made until it's maybe too late.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    I don’t know how he cleaned it, or what he cleaned it with. But my information came from an actual discussion from him. Nothing was here say or second hand.
    Tennessee

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold
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    One other factor here, smokeless powders can be temp sensitive. Work up a load that is on the edge, go shoot again in different ambient temps and it's now a pipe bomb.
    A man cannot have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition.
    Rudyard Kipling

  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowwolfe View Post
    I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

    Savage knows about these issues. Why do you think they stopped making them?
    Why was he "hip shooting" it?

  20. #20
    Boolit Master kens's Avatar
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    my guess is that somebody loaded it with Bullseye or some such fast powder
    Gosh, if you took a Rem 700, Win 70, or Weatherby rifle, and loaded a case full of Bullseye, what would happen?????

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check