Has anybody taken game with the 45 cal., Gould Hollowpoint bullet

[robert12345]

I'm curious, if anyone has taken any game animals or done any expansion testing with the Glould hollow point bullet.
.
I have taken exactly 1 deer with the 45/70. The bullet was a 400 grain+/_ lee bullet, cast from wheel weights, air cooled, and the charge pushed the bullet to ( I dunno... ) maybe 1600 to 1700 fps.

Deer shot thru the lungs, at about 50 yds, it just stood there,, as if it were stabbed by a broom handle.

Buck fever, shot two more times, missed.

30 sec later the deer fell over,, dead.

No bones hit, and a hole thru the chest about the size of a 25 cent piece.

The shot did kill the deer, but the hit was nothing like a 30-06.... 180 grain Winchester silver tip bullet. (Blam ! Deer down ! Deer dead !)
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I now have Lyman's Glould hollow point mould, and on hand, I have a stock of pure lead, some pure tin; .....and I have wheel weights.

My past rifle was a Ruger #3, the new one is the Marlin 1895 22in. bbl, 45/70.

What I want, is a, "dead right there load," out to 100 yds using the Gould bullet in 45/70.
.
Please, any thoughts from folks with more experience than me ?

Powders on hand are: 296, 2400, 4759.

What velocity should I be looking for to get reliable expansion from that bullet

[lucifers]

Your issue is not the gun, cartridge, boolit or load. It where you are shooting the animal. With a big, heavy, non-expanding, slow moving slug ---- you shoot them thru the shoulders. Meat loss is tiny and they drop on the spot.

Killed a ton of deer with 12 bore deer slugs. Shoot the shoulders, bang, flop.

Lung and heart shots are deadly with fast, expanding jacketed bullets like a 130 270 @3000 fps.

[Smoke4320]

Just reading thru the posts on this heading you will find several Gould deer kills . I dare say many many animals have fallen to the Gould Hollowpoint

[rking22]

Yes I have used the G ould bullet on several deer. Most from a 45 colt Low Wall running about 1600 fps. Personally, and considering my almost pure lead alloy, that was a bit fast. Bulletwas designed for 20 : 1 and 1400ish fps. It works well there. Nothing is going to give you a drop in the tracks EVERY time without a CMS hit or breaking both shoulders. What you do get is an exit hole and good blood trail for insurance.
Simply stated, it will work, but dont try to make a 7mm mag out of it.
As far as fast enough to expand it depends on your alloy, I'm happy at 1400 fps, but then I use 311041 at 1600 happily. Personally I think a lot of concern over expansion comes from the small bore pointy bullet perspective. Use a bullet with a good flat nose , drive it all the way thru and break out the cookware. Also I would consider your first shot on that deer just fine, sometimes takes them a bit to realize they are dead and fall down. The exit hole makes sure they leave you a good trail to follow. That is the case with any load, including fire breathing Ruger loads with JHP loads that turn the chest cavity to mush!

[Artful]

With your Marlin you can increase the speed which will increase the amount of blood shot meat - With a softer alloy and a hollow point you can get larger expansion and or fragmentation causing a larger wound channel - have there been tests with lighter Hollow point bullets in 45-70 yup


But you got good advise above use the slower more penetrating bullet to break the shoulders and anchor the deer.



NOTE: look where the should blades and spine are in the picture

[skeettx]

I would say your alloy is too hard and I would take the wheelweights at 50% and pure lead at 48% and more tin a 2%
Good luck and I would keep the other stuff the same
Mike

[Beerd]

"Has anybody taken game with the 45 cal., Gould Hollowpoint bullet?"

The wise **** part of me was going to answer "Nope, it can't be done".

But the previous posts contain much more useful info. Listen to them.
..

[Artful]

And just for education

[Hamish]

Dude lost me at putting the second shot into the same block of gel. Anything after the first shot is unquantifiable doo-doo.

[Ramjet-SS]

Still very cool video just fun to watch that stuff !!!!!

Softer alloy will get you that bang flop if you want that along with allot of bloodshot meat.

[ammohead]

Bang-flop = bloodshot meat. The best bet for consistent bangflop kills is hyper velocity and a rapid expanding bullet that will deliver massive hydrostatic shock. Looks good on video but looks like **** in the freezer. Better to have a large slower moving flatnose boolit plowing a hole through the vitals and leaving a large diameter exit wound with a red carpet blood trail to follow. You will be able to eat right up to the hole even when your shot wanders into a meaty area.

[mart]

There is no such thing as a guaranteed, bang flop, DRT, every time regardless of the cartridge or bullet. Unless you make a central nervous system shot every time.

Case in point. A friend was setting in his tree stand overlooking a meadow where he expected a shot at a whitetail doe somewhere around 250-300 yards where they normally came out in the evening. He was shooting a 300 Weatherby with 165 grain Ballistic Tips clocking 3250. He wasn't in the stand ten minutes when a doe appeared 20 yards away. Average sized doe, about 120 pounds and perfect broadside. He shot and the doe bounded off, seemingly unphased, stopping about 75 yards out looking around as if she was trying to figure out from where the sound came. Just as he was about to fire again, she fell over. A field necropsy showed her heart and lungs to be nothing but a gelatinous mess and the bullet did not exit. She had absorbed the full 3000+ pounds of energy and by all accounts should have been "DRT" but acted as if she was untouched until the moment she fell over.

Slower moving large bore cast bullets do not act like high velocity rifle bullets. Softening the alloy, lightening the bullet and going to hollow points can come closer to approximating high velocity rifle performance. However, these steps still do not guarantee DRT, bang flop results every time.

High shoulder shots with a large slow cast bullet will give a great likelihood of that with cast bullets but even that's not a guarantee they'll drop on the spot. Most do. Some do not but they don't go far with one or both shoulders out of commission.

[robert12345]

There is no such thing as a guaranteed, bang flop, DRT, every time regardless of the cartridge or bullet. Unless you make a central nervous system shot every time.

Case in point. A friend was setting in his tree stand overlooking a meadow where he expected a shot at a whitetail doe somewhere around 250-300 yards where they normally came out in the evening. He was shooting a 300 Weatherby with 165 grain Ballistic Tips clocking 3250. He wasn't in the stand ten minutes when a doe appeared 20 yards away. Average sized doe, about 120 pounds and perfect broadside. He shot and the doe bounded off, seemingly unphased, stopping about 75 yards out looking around as if she was trying to figure out from where the sound came. Just as he was about to fire again, she fell over. A field necropsy showed her heart and lungs to be nothing but a gelatinous mess and the bullet did not exit. She had absorbed the full 3000+ pounds of energy and by all accounts should have been "DRT" but acted as if she was untouched until the moment she fell over.

Slower moving large bore cast bullets do not act like high velocity rifle bullets. Softening the alloy, lightening the bullet and going to hollow points can come closer to approximating high velocity rifle performance. However, these steps still do not guarantee DRT, bang flop results every time.

High shoulder shots with a large slow cast bullet will give a great likelihood of that with cast bullets but even that's not a guarantee they'll drop on the spot. Most do. Some do not but they don't go far with one or both shoulders out of commission.

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Your statement about the deer absorbing 3000 fp of energy was very interesting.
It reminded me of an article I read some years ago, about a big water buffalo kull in Africa.

All/most were shot in the same spot; ( broadside thru the lungs). Many dropped dead at the shot, other of the beasts walked away to die later from blood loss.

Necropsy was preformed, science could not figure why some "kulls" one shot kills, others not,, until they examined the brains.
Some beasts .......brains...... were pulped by the heart lung shots; others were not.

The pulped brain shots were the instant kills.
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Further examination:

The experts determined that instant kills from heart/lung shots were determined by heart beat pulse, and blood pressure.
If a beast is shot ( heart/lung ) during the high blood pressure pulse of the heart beat, the hydrostatic shock will flow into the brain, causing massive brain hemmorage, IE: instant kills.

However, if the bullet hits during the pause ( low blood pressure pulse) the shock will not flow to the brain, and the kill is very much slower from blood loss.

The shooter also gets only one chance for a;; ...high-blood-pressure-pulse-shot, after that shot,, blood pressure drops, and follow up shots are like shooting into an empty balloon.

And, that is likely the reason your friend who shot a deer with 300 mag., high velocity bullet just walked away. It died slowly from low blood pressure.

[mart]

I read a that same article. I’m sure that’s what did happen with his doe.

That article mirrors the experience of a friend who was a professional hunter in Africa. He was contracted to do some buffalo culling. He killed 400 buffalo with a 458 and Barnes 400 grain TSX bullets. He told of the same findings, that animals shot with the same bullet placement often reacted differently. He didn’t do the extensive necropsy on the brain but remarked how often one would drop at the shot and the next would run a ways before dropping.

[Brad Cayton]

I shot a doe Saturday with the Gould. My first with it. I wanted to test the Gould this year but I screwed up the shot. The shot was about 60 yards and I hit her higher than I wanted and ended with a spine shot. Of course she hit the ground but a 44 special to the head finished it. I planned to put it through the shoulders with the Gould boolit but didn't get it done

[siamese4570]

I have killed two and my son killed one this year. One of the previous posters mentioned 1400fps is the happy place for this boolit. I agree. I'm shooting SOWW at about 1300 fps and it works fine. First one I killed was a double lung shot at about 130 yds. He ran about 50 yds. There was lung chunks on the ground for about 6 feet where I hit him. wasn't a bang/flop but he was still dead.
Siamese4570

[white eagle]

been hunting deer along time never had a bang flop
with a shot in the heart lungs
deer run and let the news that they are dead catch up to them

[stubert]

I put a .62 caliber round ball thru the boiler room of a 100 lb. doe 2 years ago. Ball diameter was .610 and weighed 340 grains. She also went about 50 yards. No bloodshot meat. I wouldn't expect a deer to fall unless a spine shot or brain shot.

[Ateam]

I have shot a lot of deer, and only once had a boiler room shot fall over dead. A spine or head shot will do it every time. My favorite is the intersection of the bottom of the spine where it dips down and the front of the shoulder blade. I have the gould mold, but only shoot game with coppers (wife likes it that way, and I find they do a fine job). I shot a doe this year with the 300 tsx out of my 1895g, shoulder shot, went about 20 yards with only rear wheel drive, what a mess.

It sounds like your first shot was spot on, and you just need a little confidence to wait out the animal. I know people who "shoot till its down", which I guess I can understand, but seems wasteful and amateurish.

[NorthMoccasin]

For me the Gould, cast of 2.5/2.5/95 at about 1450fs acts sort of like a Nosler partition. Massive expansion, nose usually blows off, rear penetrates a long way. I shot a quartering 8pt Buck on the point of the shoulder and recovered the rear half of the bullet under the skin of the offside ham. all others have been 2 holes in and out with silver dollar exit wounds. cast it soft enough to expand and it is a super deer bullet.