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Thread: 1/16 twist .40cal Ferris ML ...suggested projectile weight?

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    Post 1/16 twist .40cal Ferris ML ...suggested projectile weight?

    G'day fellow shooters,
    I have a Lee Shaver Ferris ML rifle with a 1/16 twist GM in .40 cal , I'm just after some information on what Paper Patch mould I should go with ? I shoot long range ...so after something reasonably heavy ???

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    oztrapr,
    don't expect very long bullets to be stable at long range with 1: 16" twist.
    14" will handle about 400 gn bullets with a good nose shape, so you will probably need lighter.
    your rifle will be at its best out to 600 yds in serious competition.
    if you wet patch with seth cole 55w, you will need a bullet about 0.005" less than bore diameter.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    For stability in 16 twist, I suggest go with a bullet about 1.325" long.
    I find stability out to 1K
    beltfed/arnie

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I have worked with a 40-70 that has a 16 ROT for many years and the 16 ROT will do fine to 1K with a proper bullet. These last few years the bullets have a trended for the longer pointy high BC profiles were the ogive is just as long as the shank like a money bullet and this does not work well when you want to get the bullet up to 400 plus in weight because the long nose reduces the weight and you need a longer bullet then the 16 ROT will stabilize at long range. For a 16 twist I would stick with a postell or a Creedmoor type of ogive if you want to shoot a heavier bullet. I found this bullet shoots very well in my 16 twist .40 past 1000 yards. Yes you will need a few MOA more elevation but it will do it's job. https://www.buffaloarms.com/394-420-...ase-jim2394425
    Last year I had a rifle build with a 1/14 twist and I have three moulds for it one with a prolate nose and two with a Elliptical ranging from 385 gr at 1.300" to 423 gr that is 1.465" long that is shooting very good but I have not tested it to the 1K yet.
    For your 16 twist M/L stick with a postell type nose. It will do just fine at what ever range you want to shoot.
    Kurt

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks you ,
    There are a few out there shooting the .40 out to 1k and doing well in comp , but my idea was to shoot my ferris with the .45 barrel out past 600 and the .40 from the 300 to 600 m . Just so your not bashing yourself up so much in comp.
    The .45 is a 1/16 also and likes the 575g shaver mould and shoots well from 300 to 1000m .
    Great info Kurt.... I have a nice .458 CH mould from England for my Metford / Gibbs and really like the look of it ...creedmoor style , but have shot some great groups with postell types too ....manly short ranges .
    I've found shooting the heavier bullet in the .45 Krueger Grease groove I have good success in the wind at long range and that was really one of my reasons to go with the 1/16 in the .40.
    The .40 is a green mountain barrel and is a little tight... I have a .390 diameter bullet and with 2 raps with old buffalo arms Cotten paper it slides down really nice.
    It comes out at 423g and is 1.420 total length base pore seco . I just have not had a chance to shoot it yet. I could be on track??
    The .394 from Daves might be a little tight ?? But I think that's the one a friend from South Africa is shooting and doing well with.
    I've shot Grease grove a lot but never Paper Patch so a little unsure.
    Cheers Mark

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    mark,
    if you have enough paper to use for a long time, try this.
    dry wrap a bolt about bullet diameter.
    measure the bolt and measure the wrapped diameter.
    the difference is the paper thickness.
    subtract this from your bore diameter, and you have the bullet diameter you require.
    gry wrapping gives more paper thickness than wet wrapping.
    this fact gives youthe advantage that if the dry wrapped bullet is difficult to start or load, you can go to wet wrapping rather than having to size the bullet down or order a new mould.
    beltfed arnie gives good advice re max bullet length for your twist in 40 cal.
    in certain wind conditions, bullets that are generally stable will do wierd things at long range.
    hell this game is hard enough without making it harder by using bullets too long for all conditions.
    your 45 cal has 2 options re bullet length.
    stick to a bullet 1.450 to 1.460 long and have guaranteed stability at all ranges in all conditions.
    or go up to 1.500 long with still pretty good results, and a slightly higher b.c.
    having a nose more than 1.5 calibres long is self defeating, as after bumpup that is how long even a 12:1 that is how long the nose will be.
    the lower drag profile the nose is, the less will be the overturning moment of the bullet, as the centre of pressure will be closer to the centre of mass.
    the elliptical nose is such a nose.
    the 40 cal can be made competitive in the wind to the 45 cal, but you need to go to 1:13 twist or faster.
    bullets spun in these twists can be stable at long range, and long enough to have the same b.c. as the average 45 cal.
    you are wise to use the 45 16 twist for the longs.
    while the 40 is fun to shoot, in competition you will be at a disadvantage with the 40 16 twist.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  7. #7
    Boolit Mold
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    Hi Bruce ,
    I'm having trouble posting returns ...... Timed out ???
    Thanks for the information ....looking forward to trying a few thing out .....just wondering if anyone in the US makes a good adjustable base pure mould .... I'm having trouble tracking down Charles Higgonbottoms moulds???site ??
    Cheers Mark

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Mark,
    I would avoid an adjustable mould as they are all Flat Nosed to some degree and you will be better served at long range with something pointier. I would look at this, but cut down to a much shorter length as Bruce suggests

    https://www.buffaloarms.com/395-415-...ity-jim395415e

    575 gr in a .45 is overkill and then some in my opinion. Even in a 16 twist.

  9. #9
    Boolit Mold
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    Hi Brent,
    Thanks for the input , for some reason I liked the option of fine tuning the weight...
    I tried Lee's 545g GG mould but it did not like it .... So I stuck with the bigger 575g GG one and it shot some great targets . I'm a little puzzled as it served me well at both 300m and then 800m .
    I really want to get into PP as most of the other shooters are going down that road with swagging also.
    I do like the look of the bullet you suggested though...might be a little tight but could size down a little as the PP I made up was dry and not wet as was suggested in previous comments ...
    Cheers Mark

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Mark,

    What works at 800 on a nice day, might not reach the target at 1000 on a heavy crosswind. You might be better off going with a lighter bullet when the winds are heavy (and you really want the heavy bullet). Seems counter intuitive, but when you are riding the ragged edge of stability, sometimes, less is more. My LR muzzleloading bullet is only 514 grs. albeit in an 18" twist. .45. I have a 537 gr version but it is too long. Stay pointy and a bit on the short side.

    As for tightness of the bullet in the bore, better too tight than too loose. You can easily size the bullet after patching to whatever might be the perfect size.

    Lastly, swaging. Been there, done that, had the biceps to prove it, but that's all you get with swaging, bicepts. Better bullets will be cast from a quality mould and you can buy at least 2 top-drawer, custom moulds, if not 3, for every set of swaging dies. I had Richard Corbin's press and dies, I had David Corbin's press and dies. For years. Then I got smart and sold them. Shot a heck of a lot better after that. Why? Because I could afford to order some moulds to learn what works best and I could do it in nearly real time instead of the many months, maybe years, wait that a set of swaging dies takes.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Keep the length under 1.35 will be your best bet.
    Brooks makes the best of the adjustable mounds.
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks Brent,
    I'm more confused than ever .... We'll sort of , I'm relatively new at this....I'm not sprooking... But I just shot at the world long range championships here in Australia and used the 575g at all distances and won gold at 300m and a gold at 800m in very windy conditions ... Some of the worst conditions I've shot a long range BP comp in.
    I shot the lighter bullet back at our home range and it just never really did well, in saying that I did not really play with loads . I shoot 90g of 1 1/2 Swiss up to 600m then 105g 800 to 1000 that was the load suggested to me by Lee ....it served me well at camp Butner NC two years ago too. But different conditions ...less wind.
    I went with that 16 twist to be able to push the bigger bullets as some of the guys/ girls are doing similar .
    I only pore with a dipper out of a Lee 20lb pot but am quite fussy with poring and weigh all my bullets exact .
    Agree ...A lot of the other guys I think go to a lot more trouble with swaging ...but man their bullets look so nice and shinny lol ... The Spanish team stamped a pic of a bull fighter on their paper patches ...
    One of the US shooters was named Brent also ... nice guy / good shot.
    I'll keep playing but love the info ..
    Cheers

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Long bullets will shoot well - sometimes, and then they fall apart. What is okay at 800 can be a disaster at 1000, what gets by for 10 shots with a strong quartering tail wind won't hold the paper fo 10 shots in a quartering head wind.

    Swaged bullets look pretty. If you want pretty, swage. If you want to win cast. How did the Spanish do? What was the winner using?

    I swaged for over a decade maybe closer to 15 yrs. I had thousands of dollars invested in it. I don't swage any more. I learn slowly, but I learn.

    16 twist in a .40 cal is not really very fast. I put a 14 twist in my .40-65 and I only consider it a midrange rifle. It is intended to shoot this bullet, which would be too long for your 16 twist 40 in my opinion.
    https://www.buffaloarms.com/395-415-...ity-jim395415e

    I cannot prove this, but I am of the suspicion that paper-patched bullets require a bit more twist than grease grooves, all else being equal. I think the difference is fairly small and subtle, but I think it is true nonetheless. When in doubt, err to the side of faster twist, or shorter bullets, especially at the longest ranges.

    Anyway, that's what I suggest.

  14. #14
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks Brent ,
    Totally agree , I shot grease groove and did a lot better than a lot of guys shooting PP that said don't shoot GG at the longer distances they don't work ..... Which is nice to do well with something others said wouldn't work well.
    The Spanish team didn't do so well.... Lol.
    I will order the mould you have suggested from Dave and see how it goes ...I have a few other items I need from them also.
    I had a Pedersoli Sharpes 40-65 about 14 years back now , it shot a snover really well at 100m . Best target was a100.8 but I got bored with it an on sold . About 4 years back a was offered a Browning 40-65 to get back into it . I have a brooks mould for it but can't seem get as tight a groups as I use to . I started to shoot a little long range with it and as you said ....it seems to shoot long range well out to 600m but 100m not so well .
    Thanks for your thoughts on the swagging ...I just needed a push ...As you suggested ...think I'll stick with what I'm doing with casting . Seems to be working.
    Cheers

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    if the spanish team focused more on the rules and technical details than printig logos on their patches they might have done better.
    i saw one of them crossfire, and then spend a lot of mental effort arguing that he had not.
    better to just realize that whatever happened it was a miss and get on with the next shot.
    the short time i watched brent shoot, i thought he deserved a tighter 4 ring.
    all his 4s were in near the bullseye 5, where other guys were getting 4s much further out.
    seperating those 4s into 4s and 3s would have been much fairer to better shooting.
    the actual icfra target should have been used.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Anyone that said grease grooves don't work at long range, has missed the boat. The BPTR people have proven that a thousand times over. In fact a paper patched bullet has NEVER won The National BPTR Creedmoor. Never. So, let's dismiss that idea (I do wish it were true. The cartridge shooters don't believe paper patches can work at long range). The bullets have no idea, as they are flying along, whether it was a muzzleloader or a cartridge rifle that fired them, so the results are directly comparable. Indeed, I shoot the same bullets in both types of guns.

    I think the JIM395415 is going to be too long for your .40. I really do. It is a 14 twist bullet and maybe not good enough beyond 800 yds. I'd go shorter. Same profile but shorten it up.


    Buy more moulds!

    I shot pretty crappy, considering conditions. Twisting knobs the wrong way was one issue, but not the only one.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    To all, for your land width versus the groove widths on your muzzleloading rifles, want would you say that the ratio is?
    1:1?
    1:2?
    2:3?

    The reason for asking is that my .40 has lands about half the width of the .005 deep grooves. It was made for mechanically fitted boolits to limit the amount of expansion needed to seal off. If the info is available I'd like to compare what it is versus barrels made for sub bore diameter greasers and patched.

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold
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    Sorry , I've just realised who you guys are ....lol da. New at this too...
    I got 5 mins free this morning and ordered the mould off Dave ...it's on it's way ... Can never have enough anyway .
    Cheers

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    brent,
    winding the wrong way can cause serious blood loss no questions there.
    what i saw was a number of 4s just missing the bullseye 5, left and right, not up and down.
    your shooting at the time was as good or better than anyone shooting in the same timeframe, and hence condition.
    no vert to speak of.
    i was impressed by how quickly you got on the gun and fired the shot.
    possibly the sign of an experienced hunter.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Mark, if you are coming to OR, I can make some bullets for you. Do you have the dates?

    Bruce, I'm surprised you think I was quick. I consider my speed in breaking a shot to be among my biggest liabilities. I'm slow. Really slow sometimes. Ask Kurt (aka Lead Pot). Calling wind for me is like calling wind for 5 guys because I take so long.

    But in muzzleloading, there is a need for alacrity and I was working on it. I liked shooting with Bruce. We shot at a very similar pace and he was a very considerate person to be paired with.

    As for the wind in Australia, there was a lot of it for sure, but as big winds go, it was pretty easy. It was consistent and smooth for the most part. And quartering from the rear. Had that been more of a cross wind or head wind, it would have been a lot more challenging. Unlike almost any other range I shoot, there was basically one wind from firing line to the target. At Lodi, Phoenix, Raton, or Oak Ridge, there and be half a dozen different winds in that same 1000 yds. They can be a real bastard to sort out. Where I shoot best is generally with relatively light but multiple fickle winds. I don't like it so much, but I do better than most guys in those conditions. Big winds are not something I excel at when there are multiples of them. But the winds in Australia were relatively easy given their velocities, and I felt scores should have been better than they were (except for any poor bastard that had to shoot 1000 yds from the #1 firing point - like the entire Australian team - that just wasn't fair).

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
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