Okay, you 'ol timers.

[USSR]

Went to my favourite LGS yesterday. They generally have reloading supplies and components that they pick up from gun shops that have gone out of business, and mark them down at a good price. So, there's this cannister of Winchester 450 LS there. Never heard of it, but the label is marked for target shotshell loads, so I figure it's gotta be useable for handgun loads. Get it home and start my research. Double-base ball powder that came out in the early 60's and was available until the early 70's. Was replaced by 452AA in the 70's, which was eventually replaced by WST. Dug out my Speer #8 reloading manual from 1970, and there is load data for the .38 Special and .45 ACP, but nothing else. That's fine, as that's what I intend to use it for. The one thing I found strange was that the Speer #8 manual specified using magnum primers with it, even with the light .38 wadcutter loads. So, I have to surmise that it's a bit hard to light up. Any of you 'ol timers got any other info or favourite loads using it? Thanks in advance for your reply.

Don

[USSR]

Have yet to even run across somebody who has heard of Winchester 450 LS, let alone used it. No handgun reloaders from the 60's here?

Don

[earlmck]

Sorry Don. I was loading 357s back then but the only handgun powders available in stores around here were Unique or Bullseye. And 2400 for magnum performance though I didn't use much of it since Unique did everything I needed for a lot less $.

[stubshaft]

If it was replaced by 452AA then WST it should be within the following parameters. It is faster than Unique and slower than Red Dot but was apparently dropped by Win. because of its reversed temp. sensitivity. Hotter-is-slower-cooler-is-faster. Same as Hodgdon Trap 100. Same maker, same stuff. I still have about 4# 452AA and a 3# can of WST. I don't know about the primer issue but have used it in my 38's, 45's (both ACP and LC) and am currently loading it in my 44 Lipsey. I even have 6# of WSL which was faster than WST but slower than Red Dot. The biggest problem I had with the early Winchester numbered ball powders was that they were dirty and left a lot of powder fouling.

[Minerat]

I resemble that remark. But ....

I've never tried attaching a file to a post but here goes. The attached fie 450LS.pdf had the following info in it. If the does not work then, If you PM me, I'll send you a copy of a PDF file that has copies of pages from the Lyman First edition Shotshell Handbook (1969) that describes the 450LS powder as usable in 20 and 12 ga shells.

The file also has 5 pages from the Speer #10 (1970) that shows it's burn rate in relation to available powders of the time. It is listed as faster then Red Dot. the Only places it is listed in the book is for pistol, was in the 38 special and 45 acp sections with limited bullet weights. I included those pages so you could see the relative loads for comparison purposes.

By the Third edition of the Shotshell Handbook the powder was not listed.

[USSR]

I resemble that remark. But ....

I've never tried attaching a file to a post but here goes. The attached fie 450LS.pdf had the following info in it. If the does not work then, If you PM me, I'll send you a copy of a PDF file that has copies of pages from the Lyman First edition Shotshell Handbook (1969) that describes the 450LS powder as usable in 20 and 12 ga shells.

The file also has 5 pages from the Speer #10 (1970) that shows it's burn rate in relation to available powders of the time. It is listed as faster then Red Dot. the Only places it is listed in the book is for pistol, was in the 38 special and 45 acp sections with limited bullet weights. I included those pages so you could see the relative loads for comparison purposes.

By the Third edition of the Shotshell Handbook the powder was not listed.

Thanks Minerat, I was able to save the .pdf file. While the load data is identical to the Speer #8 manual that I have, I did not have the powder description data. Odd that they used magnum primers for light wadcutter loads, don't you think?

Don

[runfiverun]

depends on the burn deterrent used.
don't overlook small size magnum primers for accurate loads.
I use a ton of them with loads like 5grs of unique with a 148gr wad cutter.
or 6grs of bulls-eye with the same boolit powder coated.

I'd say the 450 was the same powder as top mark...

[Minerat]

Thanks Minerat, I was able to save the .pdf file. While the load data is identical to the Speer #8 manual that I have, I did not have the powder description data. Odd that they used magnum primers for light wadcutter loads, don't you think?

Don

It is a little unusual, but R5R makes sense on the burn deterrent used. Maybe the 450LS is hard to start. But with 5 grains one would think the mag primers might just blow thru the load kind of like the warning Weatherby gives about downloading their 300. My mother worked for CCI in the testing lab in Lewiston, ID in the from 1970 until she retired in 1993 and she used to say the Mag primer's were intended for use with large for caliber power charges under heavy bullets.