Huntington, no matter what you hear here, your forcing cone won't be shredded by cast +p loads, it won't fall apart in your hands and the barrel won't melt. A lot of the posters in here are super fonts of knowledge info, others, Maybe not.
There's a poster in here who has probably forgotten more about K frames than most of us know. Anyway he may give a knowledgeable answer.
I understand the sentiments around the K-38 but my experience with mine over 40 years leads me to believe they are much less fragile than many would have you believe. Mine is a 14-3 purchased new new the 70's which I shot PPC with for a number of years. The gun came from S&W without a gas ring installed on the cylinder which required I clean the crane about every 200-300 rds which was a pain. After about 45K wadcutters, 3-4k GI jacketed ammo and 2-3k assorted reloads I sent the gun to S&W to have the gas ring installed. The repairman suggested a new barrel but all they had available were full lugged barrels which I did not want. They turned my barrel in a thread or two, recut the forcing cone and returned the gun to me. About that time I was done with PPC and liked shooting heavier loads. The Lyman 3rd Cast bullet handbook listed 4.2/Bullseye/158RN as max std pressure load at 900 fps. I tried it and it was very accurate but by today's standards that's over +P. I don't know exact figures but I shot at least 15-20K of those loads through the gun and still use them today for the 100yd Silhouette targets as they average 3-4moa@100 yds. Along with those I've shot at least 20K more of 4.2/BE and Lee 120 and 125 gr bullets. To date that gun has had somewhere north of 80K rounds through it with at least 15K of what would be considered +P. It has minimal end shake, no forcing cone problems and with the loads I mentioned above it is still very accurate. My Model 14 does not seem to be very fragile.
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle
The question is not, "Can a Model 14 be used to shoot +P loads"? The answer is yes. The question is, "why use a model 14 to shoot +p loads (or beyond +P loads as the OP suggests)" ?
I don't think the model 14 (or any other steel K-frame with a model number) is fragile. I do think that if your goal is to shoot a lot of heavy loads, there are better platforms to use.
A steel S&W K-frame with a model number is strong revolver but I see no need to beat them up.
fecmech's load of 4.2 grs of BE under a 158 gr lead bullet is a stout load but even that over +P load isn't at the 1000fps level the OP is talking about. There's a big gap between +P 38 Special and .357 magnum levels but if you're going to approach magnum pressures, why not use a magnum revolver?
I agree with Outpost75's statements from post #2
Bach in the early 1980's my friend shot hunters pistol silhouette with a scoped model 14. The rams are 100 yards. He was the state champion several times. His load was 5.0 gn. of Unique with a 158 gn. cast bullet.
I didn't see anything in the original post about loads above +p. The question was about shooting +p 158gr load that would give 1000 to 1100fps in his revolver. He received an answer to that plus a cornacopia of unsolicited opinions.
From the OP: "....... I do like to "push" the proverbial envelope from time to time, and I was wondering if I might be able to get a 158gr bullet to 1000fps from this gun, or possibly 1100fps? I know it's a bit much to ask of such a gun, but curiosity killed the cat. I plan to use either the Lee TL358-158-SWC, or the 358-158-RF, and cast from WW lead. "Originally Posted by salvadore
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While it might be possible to get a 158 gr bullet over 1000 fps and stay within acceptable +P pressures, It seems to be the consensus that it's likely to exceed +P pressures. Pushing the same bullet to 1100 fps will exceed +P pressures. So the OP didn't specifically say he wanted to exceed +P pressures but he provided parameters that would likely exceed +P pressures. He then received warnings that his hypothetical loads would be difficult or impossible to achieve within acceptable pressure levels. Those warnings may have been unsolicited but they were prudent.
I'm not trying to offend anyone P&P, but if consensus meant anything everyone would still believe the world was flat. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.
No feeling hurt here. There is essentially no structural difference in strength between a M14 and a M15......they are the same frame. The difference is simply in the grips, sights (front) and the barrel contour. When my LEO agency got the 5" M15s S&W said they were simply M14s with a 5" barrel and ramp front sight. In the early '70s with the advent of the "FBI Load" (158 LSWCHP +P) S&W stated the M15s we had were rated for the +P loads and a steady diet would pose no problems. I bought mine from the department when we switched to 4" M15s. I have fired hundreds of factory Winchester +Ps and my own +P loads and is as tight as it was when issued and just as accurate......I on the other hand am not as accurate with it as I used to be.
Attachment 208728
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
You're not offending me. You stated that "I didn't see anything in the original post about loads above +p." And I responded that the OP was clearly talking about the equivalent of +P loads even if he didn't actually use the term "+P".
The consensus that I was speaking of was the fact that most of the respondents in the thread recognized the OP was contemplating +P loads even if the OP didn't label them as +P (or actually, over +P ).
The consensus is that the pressure needed to push a 158gr bullet to over 1000 fps will likely require pressures over acceptable +P levels.
In fact, Outpost75 goes even farther and states that opinion in a very clear post early in the thread.
Perhaps I should clarify a few things. The bullet point structure is for clarity, not to be condescending.
-I do not yet have this revolver, as it is up for sale for a little over 400$ it has caught my eye, not to mention the feel of the gun, and its reputation.
-I'm aware of the pressure differences between the 38+P and 357, I said that performance with cast bullets (with a 158gr bullet in mind) was similar because of the limited velocity of cast bullets. See the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center for the specifics on that one.
-I'm accustomed to loading for 12 gauge, some loads give X velocity with max pressure, and some give the same velocity with a few thousand PSI less, depends on the powder. I was curious as whether or not there would be some such combination for the 38 that yielded abnormally high (for a 38 anyways) velocities while remaining within the 38's prescribed pressure limitations. I was thinking that such a load would have to be +P but found no data for +P 158 cast bullets.
-I have no attraction to high velocity whatsits or hot-rodding a little 38, but as I plan to see how well this gun can do at the 100 yard mark I was thinking a little more velocity would ensure enough bullet stability to make tumbling unlikely. Reducing drop would be a good plus too.
-See the loads at this link http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data...erBW%5B%5D=158 two of the Cast LSWC are above 1000fps. Thoughts on them?
Hey guys is there any difference in strength between the model 10 and the model 14/15 in plus P loadi.ng
Oh great, another thread that makes me spend money.
[QUOTEI have no attraction to high velocity whatsits or hot-rodding a little 38, but as I plan to see how well this gun can do at the 100 yard mark I was thinking a little more velocity would ensure enough bullet stability to make tumbling unlikely. Reducing drop would be a good plus too.
][/QUOTE]
Stability will not be a problem with 158 gr bullets out of the S&W 18 3/4" twist barrel, they fly fine out to 200 yds which is the farthest I've shot them. Not much you can do about the drop except adjust your sight or hold point for 100 yds. I use two bullets when shooting Hunters Pistol Silhouette. I zero with a 120@1000fps for the 25,50 and 75 yd targets at 50 yds. That gives me about 1.5" high@25, on @50yds and 3" low@75 yds. That sight setting puts my 158@900 fps right on @ 100yds. Works out great for me.
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle
Generally not. During the Bangor-Punta era and before the frames were plain carbon similar to 1050 quenched and tempered. I have no first-hand experience as to S&W metallurgy and heat treatment after mid 1980s because I never worked on the later ones, which I would certainly hope were better... By then most depts. and agencies were transitioning to 9mm autopistols...
If you want to know for sure if your revolver is +P rated get a machine shop to run a Rockwell hardness test on the top strap. This is the area which stretches and causes the gun to develop end play and loose headspace and cylinder gap, as well as the recoil plate bring peened out of square so that you need to straighten the frame...
If its hardness does not even register on the Rockwell "C" scale, don't shoot +P in it unless you want to stretch the crane to take our the end shake after about 500-1000 rounds, then you can stretch the crane maybe twice before cylinder gap increases to 0.009", at which point you would want to set the barrel back a thread to re-establish cylinder gap to the same pass 0.004/hold 0.005" it had as a new gun before proofing and before you loosened it up. Very likely in this interval the gun will have gone out of time and will need a new hand ("pawl" for you Colt or Ruger guys) fitted to correct timing. And if you really beat up the gun by shooting lots of +P or +P+ Q4070 Treasury loads in it, the locking bolt notches in the cylinder will be peened from cylinder backspin and if you don't have a new cylinder to fit, you put an oversized locking bolt or cylinder stop from Ron Power into it.
If you have a 1970s or 80s Model 19 .357 all the above also applies if you try to shoot a steady diet of full-charge .357s in it instead of a 1:10 ratio of .357 service to standard pressure .38 Special which the gun was designed for... I did that too before I learned my lesson...
Once you have all the oversized parts in the gun, you have to decide to retire it and build a wadcutter-only PPC gun out of it, which I did, or to sell the S&W and buy a Ruger which will run for 10,000 rounds of +P with no repairs or parts replacements.
Last edited by Outpost75; 12-01-2017 at 10:47 PM.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Outpost75 wrote: "..............or to sell the S&W and buy a Ruger which will run for 10,000 rounds of +P with no repairs or parts replacements. "
/\ OK, that put a smile on my face !! /\
The S&W K-frame is a truly remarkable example of engineering. If confined to standard pressure lead bullet 38 Special loads and given a little care, they are capable of lasting a lifetime.
As much as I admired Bill Jordan and his concept of a 357 magnum built of a K-frame, I think that concept took the K-frame a little beyond what the platform could handle in the long run. Yes, the K-frame could be made strong enough to shoot magnum rounds but we learned there was a price to be paid for long term use of magnum rounds in the K-frame.
The difference between Maximum Allowable Pressure [MAP] standard pressure 38 Special [17K] and +P 38 Special [20K] isn't nearly as great as the difference between 38 Special +P and 357 magnum [35k] but there's still a price to be paid.
I've always been impressed that Ruger could make the Service-Six that was roughly the same overall size as a K-frame and yet significantly stronger.
Love my 1988 Service Six! Unless you shoot only hot rod .357's the GP-100 is a step backwards.
Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30 WCF, .308 WCF, .45-70.
My model 10 is -5. It doesn't seem like it has been abused as far cylinder gap and timing goes. I don't push it that hard but it's quite an ammo hog. Hard to put it down once I start shooting it.
Oh great, another thread that makes me spend money.
Yes, but not wise to do a steady diet. Colt Police Positive Special, and Official Police was advertised to handle 38-44 before the 357 models of colt were brought to market. The PPS is considerably smaller than the K frame, also the post model years saw improvement in heat treating. A detective friend of mine 40 years ago carried factory 38-44 in his model 36 J frame, he did not shoot them much but the little gun handled them without any drastic changes in the gun, or that were apparent. He used the 36 in a on duty shooting at a hospital emergency room. A patient(known scumbag) took a nurse hostage with a scalpel. One shot to the pelvis brought him down shattering the pelvic bone. As a officer with a issued model 64 I carried 38-44 handloads on duty, shot just enough to know what they would do. When I turned the gun in it was like new.
If your carrying for self defense a few 38-44 are not going to cause significant wear, but should not be used as target rounds. Also with the right powders amazing velocities can be accomplished with +P loads, or slightly stronger. I am getting 900 fps out of a two inch barrel with 138 grain coated wadcutters, a slightly heavier load for my GP 4 inch yields 1200 fps, both guns the cases extract easily and there are no extreme pressure signs on the cases.
Your loads are your responsibility, so please be careful, but a couple rounds in self defense is not going to blow the gun up. If you are going to use the gun regularly for hunting, then get an L frame.
My 2˘
Seems like a no-brainer, a sweet gun and a sweet price (by todays standards).
A couple years ago, during a Police Qual shoot at my sportsman club range, they had Pepper-poppers setup, and I had a 4" S&W 38 and some of my 148gr WC reloads with 2.7gr of bullseye. I always wondered where I (or the 38 with WC) could reach out to accurately. So I started shooting at the Pepper-poppers, and after 12 rounds, I would step back 10 yards or so, and repeat, til I was too far away to consistently hit the targets...At 70 yards, I started missing some, and 80 yards I was missing most of the time.
So, my suggestion is to get the pistol, and start out with standard 38 spl loads and see what you can do at 100 yds...you may never need +p.
Good Luck.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001
I shoot 150gr. LSWC 'S sized to .358 after PCing them over 5.5gr. Of BR-5 (milsurp powder very similar to unique)from my 4" Taurus. Albeit a .357 mag. Weapon these .38 loads are deadly accurate at 100 yards. 6 of 6 in a cantaloupe size group everytime all the time. Love shooting my open sight pistols at distance. Lots ,and lots of practice to develop consistant habits to be accurate out that far. It is a blast. Standard 38 ammo data is more than capable of what your gonna ask of it.
Just try different stuff until you find "the load". It's a fun road to travel. I still try different stuff just because I can. Lol
Enjoy the ride. - CASTER
Disclaimer: always consult published load data. I don't recommend using my data without verification from a known source.
In regards to shooting safety.Until you are ready to fire, keep your booger hook off the bang switch.
We cannot take any of these with us. If you wear it out, buy another. I will shoot my model 15 all day with +p. If an all steel k frame will not take +p, nothing will. Put thousands of rounds through it and it may need attention.
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