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Thread: 38 Spec 158gr +P Loads?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    I also find it very interesting that the velocity and pressure given for loads for the 2 "Lead Semi-WadCutter" bullets
    varies significantly between the 2 bullets.
    The 2nd bullet, "MEI" is a commercial cast Meister brand bullet.
    I don't know what the brand/style the 1st bullet is or how it differs from the 2nd bullet.
    An excerpt from that website's data for CFE Pistol powder:


    158 GR. CAST LSWC ___ Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.3 gr. 1,048 FPS 16,100 PSI
    158 GR. MEI CAST LSWC Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.0 gr. 1,029 FPS 16,700 PSI


    Why does 0.3 gr more powder produce 600 PSI LESS?
    It shows that different instances of guns (even of the same make and model) and
    supposedly the "same" bullet (158 gr lead) can make a significant difference in velocity and pressure.


    A variance of 19 fps and 600 psi is really not a "significant difference". You can easily have that much variance in fps and psi in back to back tests of the exact same ammunition in the same test fixture/firearm. Also the use of 2 different bullets even of the same weight can easily cause more variance than that. The variables of different lube, different alloy, different bearing surface, different seating depth along with others cause the difference.

    Anytime you see a pressure figure quoted you must understand there are +/- pressures also and what you see posted is the "average". It is the same for velocities posted. There is always a +/- or ES (Extreme Spread) associated with the average figure. SAAMI has allowable +/- ranges (it's complicated btw so don't ask for a set number).
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  2. #62
    Boolit Master


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    No one has disproven the finding that lower powered loads make a gun last longer. The cost of flaunting this absolutely proven principle is on you.

    Your choice, your cost.


    Certainly don't disagree with that. Shooting magnum pressure level loads will certainly shoot a barrel out faster than cat's sneeze target level loads. Those who want to dance should be willing to pay the band.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  3. #63
    Boolit Master
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    The other point I am trying to make is that guns are often if not always designed for a specific velocity with a certain bullet weight. When this is exceeded gun wear increases greatly even if loads are “within pressure guidelines.”

    Don’t kid yourself. If one is getting 280 ft lbs out of a 9 ounce pistol that really should be running at 180-190 max, something is gonna give out sooner than you want and a malfunction when you most need it becomes an ever increasing possibility.

    Running mild steel or aluminum revolvers, especially if small framed, as hard as “pressure guidelines” might suggest you can go is a practice for those with deeper pockets and a greater sense of abandon than I possess.

    I would like to think I have learned something during my time here. This is one of those things. I find standard pressure loads amply fast for any reasonable 38 Special use.

  4. #64
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    I view the essential strengths of the .38 Special to be accuracy, wide variety of available guns, and heavy for caliber boolit in a variety of styles. You don't have to load it to the redline to enjoy these attributes.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  5. #65
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    I long ago, gave up trying to make a magnum out of every cartridge and gun that I own.
    I have never blown any guns up but I have seen quite a number of blown primers during my early reloading years.
    If the gun I have is not powerful enough to get the job done, I get a bigger gun.
    I dearly love the 38 special for it's usefulness, ease of use, ease of loading for, and that they are not difficult to find.

  6. #66
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    No one has disproven the finding that lower powered loads make a gun last longer. The cost of flaunting this absolutely proven principle is on you.

    Your choice, your cost.


    Certainly don't disagree with that. Shooting magnum pressure level loads will certainly shoot a barrel out faster than cat's sneeze target level loads. Those who want to dance should be willing to pay the band.
    Bravissimo!
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  7. #67
    Boolit Master Low Budget Shooter's Avatar
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    mnewcomb, please consider that Outpost75 has "been there and done that," and has spent years writing up the findings from his vast experience and giving it out to us for free. He is probably the single most knowledgeable person alive on how to get the best possible performance out of 38 Special ammo and guns. In future, I hope you will take what he posts more seriously than you are doing at present.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Budget Shooter View Post
    mnewcomb, please consider that Outpost75 has "been there and done that," and has spent years writing up the findings from his vast experience and giving it out to us for free. He is probably the single most knowledgeable person alive on how to get the best possible performance out of 38 Special ammo and guns. In future, I hope you will take what he posts more seriously than you are doing at present.
    That is all well and cool but it doesn't change the fact that his info was wrong and that he dug his heels in, relying
    on ethos rather than evidence to argue for his initial wrong point. A smart person adapts their worldview to the evidence presented. In his shoes I would have said " oh wow I guess Unique and Power Pistol can get 1000 fps in a 6" barrel. I guess what I really meant is that you can't get 1000 fps with fast powder. Thanks for putting forth the effort to find that info for me."
    Last edited by mnewcomb59; 12-06-2017 at 01:33 PM.

  9. #69
    Boolit Master
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    Ask yourself if someone who advocates caution in handoading for older revolvers is doing anyone a disservice. If advice keeps you out of trouble and makes the firearm perform safely and effectively for frequent use, is that not clearly good advice?

    At least give that some thought.

  10. #70
    Boolit Man derek45's Avatar
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    4" S&W 19-4

    38 special loads

    158gr coated average fps chrony data

    4.8gr w231 870fps +P

    -----------------

    4.3 titegroup 905fps +P

    -------------------

    5.4 powerpistol 896fps ( not +P )

    -----------------------

    6.6 HS6 904fps +P

    -------------------

    5.4 CFE-p 914fps +P

    -------------

    6.0gr power pistol 936fps +P

    -----------------





    Last edited by derek45; 12-06-2017 at 06:54 PM.
    .


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  11. #71
    Boolit Master
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    FWIW, the 6/power pistol load is Plus P. The 5.4 grain charge is not. 4.3 Titegroup is Plus P, the W231 charge is either upper end standard pressure or lightly Plus P. Cannot speak from firsthand experience about the others.

    Food for thought.

  12. #72
    Boolit Man derek45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    FWIW, the 6/power pistol load is Plus P. The 5.4 grain charge is not. 4.3 Titegroup is Plus P, the W231 charge is either upper end standard pressure or lightly Plus P. Cannot speak from firsthand experience about the others.

    Food for thought.
    yep

    edited post to add the "+P" info

    thanks
    Derek
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  13. #73
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    Ask yourself if someone who advocates caution in handoading for older revolvers is doing anyone a disservice. If advice keeps you out of trouble and makes the firearm perform safely and effectively for frequent use, is that not clearly good advice?

    At least give that some thought.
    Some people need to learn through personal experience.

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    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master
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    One time, when working on a truck in my earlier years of ownership, my dad demonstrated a way to reassemble the springs on the drum brake assembly with little apparent strain (for those of you that have not done this yourself, the springs are under a LOT of tension).

    Having witnessed all that, I promptly had to try my own way of doing it, which failed by any comparison.

    Whereupon my father was compelled to comment. He said, “You know, it never fails to amaze me when someone who has never done something before thinks he knows more than someone who has.”

    I had to reflect on that awhile.

  15. #75
    Boolit Master
    vzerone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derek45 View Post
    4" S&W 19-4

    38 special loads

    158gr coated average fps chrony data

    4.8gr w231 870fps +P

    -----------------

    4.3 titegroup 905fps +P

    -------------------

    5.4 powerpistol 896fps ( not +P )

    -----------------------

    6.6 HS6 904fps +P

    -------------------

    5.4 CFE-p 914fps +P

    -------------

    6.0gr power pistol 936fps +P

    -----------------





    Your range setup sure looks like Hickok45's range. I thought for a second this was going to be one of his videos!!

  16. #76
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    One time, when working on a truck in my earlier years of ownership, my dad demonstrated a way to reassemble the springs on the drum brake assembly with little apparent strain (for those of you that have not done this yourself, the springs are under a LOT of tension).

    Having witnessed all that, I promptly had to try my own way of doing it, which failed by any comparison.

    Whereupon my father was compelled to comment. He said, “You know, it never fails to amaze me when someone who has never done something before thinks he knows more than someone who has.”

    I had to reflect on that awhile.
    My father owned a used car parts lot for a long time while I was growing up. While I helped him there, I took off and reassembled a lot of drum brakes. Your story brought back some memories froma long time ago for me.
    As to your father's statement, he knew what he was talking about.

  17. #77
    Boolit Master
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    He did know what he was talking about. Despite not listening to his advice, after he made his comment I actually did something smart and kept my mouth shut. This may have given him some hope I was not completely stupid in a repetitive sense.

  18. #78
    Boolit Master JBinMN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vzerone View Post
    Your range setup sure looks like Hickok45's range. I thought for a second this was going to be one of his videos!!
    I thought the same thing..
    LOL


    -----------------------------------
    35Remington & tazman,


    You fellers talking about your Dads reminded me of this quote:

    “When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.


    ― Mark Twain
    "If ya don't like my gate, ya don't have to swing on the hinges..." - L. Ackerman ( RIP)
    *------*
    "A man ought ta do what he thinks is best" - "Hondo" Lane.(John Wayne)

  19. #79
    Boolit Master Walkingwolf's Avatar
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    If the OP loads 1,000fps loads is he breaking any laws? I only care for yes, or no answers because nothing else matters in self reliance, self responsibility, and personal choice.

  20. #80
    Boolit Man derek45's Avatar
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    LOLOL Ya'all hold muh beer n watch this

    :LOL:
    .


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check