For what it's worth, I've handled quite a few 14's and other K's that were out of time. How much of that was from sheer mileage, how much from Gunsmithing By Bubba or other abuse, and how much from too-hot ammo, I couldn't tell you, but if I had a clean, tight 14, I'd only be using it for wadcutter level loads, and would be pick L-frames and GP-100's for the toasty experiments.
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
Bigslug brings up good points:
There are a lot of K-frames out there. Some are in excellent condition and some not so much.
The ones that are less than ideal could be in that state due to Bubba Gunsmithing, excessively hot loads or just sheer mileage.
For about as long as I can remember, I've had at least one S&W K-frame in my possession. Often I've owned several at once. The S&W K-frame is an outstanding DA revolver. However, it does have its limitations.
With lead bullets, standard pressure 38 Special loads and a bit of care, they will outlast most people.
Bigslug said, ".......if I had a clean, tight 14, I'd only be using it for wadcutter level loads, and would be pick L-frames and GP-100's for the toasty experiments. "
/\
Those sentiments have been expressed repeatedly in this thread and I think they are shared by many.
I do have a clean and tight S&W model 14 and I do not wish to abuse it.
I have abused K-frames in the past and I've seen many that were abused by others. I know what will happen if the guns are abused. The comments from Outpost75 concerning high pressure loads in a S&W K-frame are 100% spot on.
The K-frame is a great gun but bad things happen when you push them too far. It's no different than automotive applications. I've seen good engines and drivetrains that would give decades of yeoman like service with a little bit care and common sense. I've seen the exact same type of engines and drivetrains fail early and spectacularly due to neglect and abuse.
The same admonishment applies to J-frames as well.
Back in the day (1980s) I took a new 36-1, measured cylinder gap, headspace and endshake, as well as copper indent using the government gages. Then gun was fired with ONE BOX, a mere 50 rounds of Olin 110-grain Q4070 +P+ LE ammunition.
After firing 50 rounds of ammunition which exceeded industry +P standard by about 15% the revolver developed 0.002" end play and the cylinder gap opened from pass 0.004/hold 0.005 to pass 0.006/hold 0.007". This was only ONE BOX of "hot" ammo.
So, crane was stretched, end shake removed and gun tightened back up, with cylinder gap now 0.002" looser than when gun was new, but within spec. Changed ammo to ordinary +P Winchester X38SPD lead +P (FBI load) in it to continue the endurance test, having a designated student fire one tactical revolver course each day, clean and inspect the gun. After logging 500 rounds of full charge duty ammo end play back was back up to 0.002+ and gap exceeded factory specs, being pass 0.008"/hold 0.009".
So, the barrel was set back 1 thread, the crane was stretched again, endshake corrected again, gap restored to new factory specs gap pass 0.004/hold 0.005" so no end shake could be felt. Timing was now a bit "slow" in DA if gun was held in the hand with only weight of the gun only as drag on cylinder, so also fitted new hand and oversized cylinder stop.
OK, so no more firing +P. Gun returned to vault for training use to be shot with wadcutters only.
After a couple years, intermittent new-shooter training use logging 5000 wadcutters the gun had loosened up again, so returned it to factory for rebuild. Fitted new barrel, new crane, new cylinder, new hand, new cylinder stop, factory reblue and pretty new box with tools. Sold as "surplus" immediately when it came back... The lesson is, don't shoot very much +P in a J-frame if you want it to last, regardless of what the website says.
Last edited by Outpost75; 12-03-2017 at 01:02 PM.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
S&W made some K frames in 9MM. how did these stand up? 9MM pressures are much higher than 38+P.
The 3 people a man must be able to trust completely are his gunsmith his doctor & his preacher ..,his gunsmith for his short term health ,his doctor for long term health ,and his preacher incase one of the others mess up.
Thanks for all the input gentlemen, you've helped a lot.
How would you consider the new N frames compared to the old ones. Is it true the newer ones are more durable than the older ones?
Oh great, another thread that makes me spend money.
> -See the loads at this link http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data...erBW%5B%5D=158 two of the Cast LSWC are above 1000fps.
> Thoughts on them?
7.7" barrel length, not a 4" or 5" gun. Obviously a 4 or 5 " barrel will give less velocity than a 7.7" barrel.
The difference between 4" and 7.7" could be a couple hundred FPS, especially with a higher pressure round
like we are talking about.
I also find it very interesting that the velocity and pressure given for loads for the 2 "Lead Semi-WadCutter" bullets
varies significantly between the 2 bullets.
The 2nd bullet, "MEI" is a commercial cast Meister brand bullet.
I don't know what the brand/style the 1st bullet is or how it differs from the 2nd bullet.
An excerpt from that website's data for CFE Pistol powder:
158 GR. CAST LSWC ___ Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.3 gr. 1,048 FPS 16,100 PSI
158 GR. MEI CAST LSWC Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.0 gr. 1,029 FPS 16,700 PSI
Why does 0.3 gr more powder produce 600 PSI LESS?
It shows that different instances of guns (even of the same make and model) and
supposedly the "same" bullet (158 gr lead) can make a significant difference in velocity and pressure.
Please post the link where I can see that these loads are pressure tested to industry standards. I think you are citing "solid" test barrel ballistics, NOT from a 4" vented test barrel simulating revolver test conditions. BIG velocity difference (about 80-100 fps) between a 4" revolver or SAAMI "vented" test barrel versus a solid 6" test barrel which the powder companies use so they can publish an inflated velocity number, which you would only get in a Contender pistol.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Buffalo Bore loads a 158 lead at 1250 fps in a 6". I am not going to sit here and google information for you. You are the one making the assertion, so how about you find me proof that it can't be done? Do it yourself with the search terms "38 +p chronograph fps "power pistol" swc"
Power Pistol gets over 1000 fps in my 4" model 10 and Unique is just shy.
When I worked in the firearms industry, I used personally and supervised others who worked with pressure test barrels, SAAMI reference ammunition and our group fired acceptance tests of police service ammunition daily and also conducted audit shoots of contract weapons before being released to the customer. I probably personally pressure tested over 10,000 rounds of .38 Special ammunition over a 3-year period and again that much of 9mm. I know how difficult it is to obtain satisfactory safety, reliability, accuracy and ballistic uniformity in revolver ammunition, particularly when fired in barrels shorter than 4 inches.
While you can get higher velocity and lower pressure by using slower powders there are trade-offs, like unacceptable levels of muzzle flash, unburned powder particles which cause functioning problems, which could get an officer killed, and issues with ballistic uniformity, particularly when firing in elevated or suppressed temperatures.
This is an area which I know something about. I just wanted a published source if you had one. Too many people drink the Kool-Aid without validating the results. I just didn't want people to accept advertising claims on blind faith because some are pure snake oil.
If a claim sounds too good to be true, it probably is. There is no free lunch in ammunition performance. I destructive tested enough revolvers for a living before I retired to be highly skeptical...
I'm not trying to start a urinating contest. I'm simply asking people to consider the source of a claim and try to validate it from reviewing independent test data from someone other than the buy who is trying to sell a product, or the shill gun writer who wants to get more free samples and will say anything...
Last edited by Outpost75; 12-05-2017 at 01:55 PM.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
So your point is that it cant be done except when it can be done, but there might be muzzle flash and powder particles. Got it.
The source is Alliant themselves. 5.3 gr of Unique or 6 grains of Power Pistol will get you 980-1020 fps in a 4" barrel. Let alone a 6" like your original claim that it can't be done.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloadi...er-pistol.html
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/relo...er-pistol.html
Let me caution that a major publication devoted specifically to hand loading has recently published numerous loadings in a “special edition” in 38 Special and 380 that are really inadvisable to be shot in the guns they were fired in despite being “within pressure guidelines.” This applies to the other calibers as well.
For instance, 1150 FPS from a 95 grain bullet from a Ruger LCP 380 is really not smart. Malfunctions become greatly more likely and battering of the gun increases greatly since slide velocity is a function of bullet velocity.
Don’t believe everything you read. Think before emulating.
No one has disproven the finding that lower powered loads make a gun last longer. The cost of flaunting this absolutely proven principle is on you.
Your choice, your cost.
Well I have pressure tested +P loads, factory and my own, in a "solid" test barrel to wit a Contender barrel. The loads using Unique under the 358156 and TL358-158-SWCs were within SAAMI 38 SPL +P standards. The velocity from the "solid" test barrel was not given because, as mentioned, the barrel/cylinder gap and freebore of the cylinder throats will cause the velocity from a revolver to be different.
Those pressure tested loads to within safe SAAMI 38 SPL +P pressures were then chronographed in a 5" M15 as previously posted and a 6" Ruger Security Six. The +P load with Unique gave over 1000 fps from the Ruger 6" barreled revolver. As I mentioned to the OP there is no reason such safe +P pressure level loads will not also reach 1000 fps in his 6" barreled M14 revolver.
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |