Navy 1851 Project

[shaman]

My son and I were over at my buddy's house last night. He had some scrap lead and some .223 brass to give me. He and my son got to talking about black powder revolvers and the next thing we know, my buddy put the pistol on top of the pile and told him to take it all.

Dang! That was nice.

I'm in the process of giving it a deep cleaning. It has been sitting in the safe for 15 years. I've promised to help him with the project. He's been shooting since he was a tyke. He's been casting with me for the past 5 years or so, but this is our first BP revolver project together.

Here's a pic


I've got a bunch of questions:

1) What mold? I'm thinking the Lee 375-130-1R, but my buddy also threw in some round ball.
2) Powder? Can we use Pyrodex or 777 or just FFFG BP
3) Load? I see so many ideas-- everything from 9 GR to 25GR
4) Wad?
5) Cap? I've got a bunch of #11
6) Should he make paper cartridges, or just load loose components?

[jcren]

Not a lot of help, but to get ya started, cap should be #10 which is a little shorter tha 11's. We just shot soft rb in ours over 25 grains of pyrodex RS. Why 25? Because I had a small horn at the time that had a 25 grain tip/funel which made it easy. Started packing bore butter over the ball to prevent chain fire but switched to wonder wads under the ball, much less mess. Those things are a blast to shoot with almost no recoil, but cleaning can be a pain.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

When I used the Lee mould in an original Navy, many decades ago, it had a reduced base to fit into the chamber, and the following band was forced in with the rammer. I don't see this feature mentioned in their current catalogue, and can't make it out in the picture, but I expect it is unchanged. This strikes me as a fine, sensible principle, but over the years I have seen many people claiming that it doesn't actually give any better performance than round ball.

Chambers do become enlarged, so it is a good idea to measure them before laying out cash. They should be very close to the same size, and dimensioned so as to create a short cylindrical waist on a ball when it is forced home. I should say that about 3/16in. in length of this contact area is about perfect.

Similarly nipples come in different sizes, and do become reduced in outer diameter by erosion. Caps do vary slightly, even with the same number. So it might end up worthwhile replacing the nipples to suit the caps you can easily obtain locally. Note that replicas and original revolvers usually have different nipple threads. Time spent exploring the Track of the Wolf website is never wasted.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/159/1

[Nobade]

Since it has a brass frame I'd limit the loads to a Max of 20 gr. And preferably less, behind a soft .375" ball. A 1/8" felt wad saturated in lube between the powder and ball is my way of shooting revolvers, much less messy than grease on top and the wad helps keep the bore wiped.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Be careful with the brass frame, light loads 15-20 grains at best, somewhere I saw Wild Bill Hickok used only 12 grains. He did not want an exit wound, counting on infection do the rest. I was gifted a used brass frame 44, the frame has impressions of the nipples and ratchet from recoil. They are fun and cheap to run, I have a Pietta steel frame 36 Navy. I use a 375 round ball and get 16 grain charges from the spout I use... 16 grains works fine. Loading/reloading is slow - some say relaxing - you really can't hurry.

[bedbugbilly]

What caliber is it? It is not a true copy of a Navy Colt as it has a round barrel so it's a 1851 style that is not modeled after a 1851 - not downgrading it but rather just pointing that out for a reason. You haven't stated the caliber. A Navy would be in .36 but over the years, thee were many of these "somewhat look alike" that were in .44 caliber. So first, determine the caliber and then determine the ball size needed.

Being a brass frame, shoot reduced loads in it. A continuous diet of heavy loads will cause the brass recoil shield to get "hammered" by the cylinder - and over time, the frame will stretch. Nothing wrong with a brass frame - just don't make a steady diet of heavy loads.

When the ball is seated in the chamber with the loading lever, you want the ball to be soft lead and to be enough oversize of the chamber to shear a ring of lead from it when seated. I've been shooting '51s for 55 years. I've owned a number of manufacturers and most have taken a .375 RB but if your chamber is a bit oversize, it may require a .380 RB. If it is a .44 revolver, the same goes . . . you want to shear a lead ring when seating the ball. This insures that there is a tight seal.

On my steel frame Uberti Navy (.36), I use a 38 Special casing for a measure and that will throw 22 grains of 3F. On a brass frame, I'd cut that load back to about 18 grains of 3F - I don't remember what a 38 Colt Long casing throws but it should be about right - or you could trim back a 38 special casing to make a measure to throw 18 grains.

Some use a lubed felt wad between the ball and powder. I punch out 1/8" leather wads with a 3/8 (.375) punch for my 36 caliber revolvers. I have always used one pound of Crisco mmelted together with the real beeswax of one toilet ring for my BP lube. I melt it in the microwave, throw the leather wads in and soak them and then pat dry with paper towel.

As with all BP firearms - use a good BP lube of your choice. The purpose is to keep the fouling soft. Remove the cylinder and grease the cylinder pin with the lube - this will keep the fouling from building up there and will keep the cylinder fro binding for quite a few more shots. Pour your measured charge in, put in your wad and compress in place with the loading ram, place the ball on the chamber mouth and then seat in the chamber tight against the wad with the loading lever. As with all BP firearms, you want a slightly compressed load - i.e. no air space between the ball and powder so make sure the ball is seated firmly against the charge. Once the cylinder is loaded, you can take your finger or whatever and place some of your lube over the ball - it isn't necessary to put a big gob of it - just enough to put a little lube around the circumference of the ball is fine where it meats the chamber sides. Some don't use any lube there but I always have and I feel that while it doesn't take much, it does keep fouling soft. If I remember correctly from my N-SSA days, the N-SSA requires that step.

You want your caps to fit the nipples snuggly and seated all the way. Sometimes the nipples on these are not the best so while you have it broken down, check to see that the caps you are going to use fit correctly. If they do not seat down all the way, they will interfere with the clearance between the cylinder and the recoil shield in most cases. Most of my C & B revolvers take a #10 but you'll need to check that out.

When done shooting - clean it throughly with hot soapy water and get all the fouling/dirt/grime from the bore, the cylinder, frame, etc. and then oil well. Check back in a few days to make sure you aren't getting any rust as it doesn't take long for BP fouling to create it. Other than that, it should provide you and your son a lot of fun and a big smile on your face!

If you're going to carry it in the field, keep the hammer on an empty chamber for safety. Yea, some designs have safety notches and pins between the cylinders - but if you get in the habit of carrying a SA on an empty chamber, you'll always be safe. Just one of those things that was drilled into my head when I was a kid learning to shoot SA revolvers - old habits die hard. I used to have a lot of fun hunting rabbits with a '51 Navy and even took a squirrel or two when I was a kid.

Be safe and have fun!

[Battis]

Brass frame, round barrel, .36 caliber = Griswold & Gunnison replica. High Standard made a quality copy, and I think Pietta made a copy, too. .375 - .380 roundballs, 18 grs FFFG. Caps that fit when the gun is unfired might not fit when the nipples get fouled. I'd go with #11s. Bore Butter or Crisco over the balls.

[Texas by God]

You can tell a .44 by the rebated cylinder on a 51 copy. I had one for years and it was very accurate and fun to shoot with 20 grains of Pyrodex P as well as 3F Black. I would run the barrel and cylinder through the dishwasher to clean it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't like the idea of relying on a lubed wad behind the bullet, at least if it is flat. The first thing the pressure is going to do is convert that flat disc into a cup, and in doing so it will produce a gap between wad and chamber wall. If the surface of the chamber is rough, there is a good chance that flame from the chamber being fired getting into the charge of the next one, and causing a chainfire. The usual belief is that a chainfire is alarming but not dangerous. But I can't see how it wouldn't accelerate the brass frame stretching problem. I'd feel happier with grease ahead of the ball, and for that Crisco or soft margarine should be fine.

It might be possible to do something with a simple press die, to press a wad with one face flat and the other a bullet-radius concavity, from papier maché, waxed fibre or some kind of plastic. A ⅜in. bore die, ⅜in. punch and ⅜in. ball-bearing would do it. Or perhaps you could adapt a .357 revolver die and a shellholder.

Tight caps can usually be forced onto a large nipple, as long as it is tapered. But loose ones can fall off, and if that happens, it is going to be during the match of a lifetime, or a fifty-yard rabbit when your hand and eye are behaving themselves and all the family are watching. There is a risk that if a cap falls off and leaves a nipple open, you will get a rear-end chainfire, or it will jam the cylinder rotation.

It seems painfully easy for the hammer to get out of one of those safety notches in the cylinder. Perhaps as good as only loading five shots would be a narrow, thick strap on the holster, to extend between hammer and frame. That would also retain the revolver in the holster.

I never shot anything living with my Navy, but one of the shots of a lifetime was one I didn't take. I was up in the hills very late in the evening to test it, and in a little wooded valley I heard a curious high-pitched whistling. It sounded exactly like a guinea-pig I used to have - far above rabbits as a children's pet, in my opinion, for they don't bully each other, and mine used to whistle for a bit of company when she heard me, even if she had plenty of food.

I thought it must be some kind of bird I didn't know, so I went on very slowly and quietly. I came to the smooth black pool below a waterfall, and saw something swirling in the water. For a moment I thought it was a fish, and shooting them hasn't been much addressed in legislation. But it climbed out on a rock, and it was an otter, barely ten feet from me. It was there a good half-minute before it sensed my presence and departed. I don't suppose one person in a thousand has seen one, except maybe crossing a road. I still can't work out whether I'd rather he had been a fox, fair game but not such a rare experience.

[Battis]

From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

[runfiverun]

the round balls are fine.
3-f at 15-18grs is good.
#11's.
a bees-wax Crisco lanolin [60-40-10] mix swiped over the cylinder mouth is plenty.

Littlegirl got one of these from Ken as a present years back.
I told her she had to work it out for herself.
she come up with the above [after digging through my stuff]

[shaman]

Thanks all for the help. We'll give this a go and get back to you.

[elmacgyver0]

I agree with the grease over the ball, not only insure against chain fire but keeps the cylinder from freezing up.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

We are mainly talking Colts here. But the Remingtons, and possibly others with a smaller diameter, ungrooved axis pin, could benefit from grease around the pin. They will still stiffen up faster than the Colt, but it helps.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello shaman,

Make sure the frame isn't all beat up.
Lube under ball is the way to go.
A.S.M.'s take a .380 ball, most others take .375,
be sure to shave a ring while loading (unless chambers have been chamfered).
Please read this link, http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html
He has posted most all you need to know.

AntiqueSledMan

[Battis]

There's many opinions on the causes of chainfires, and some are correct some of the time, part of the time, most of the time, all of the time...but I've found that the #1 cause is poorly cast roundballs. It happened to me twice, in two different .36 handguns using roundballs cast from the same damaged mold. The roundballs had uneven surfaces, with pock marks/pits that weren't noticeable. I stopped using that mold and never had a chainfire again.
Grease over the balls, under the balls, large caps pinched on, small caps forced on...whatever works for you.
I started using the vegetable spray PAM over the balls, and on the ungrooved cylinder pins of my Remington and Colt Paterson with great results. I also use it in my muzzle loading rifles, and even down the barrel of my Vetterli (black powder rounds). A spray down the barrel every few shots makes clean-up amazingly easy.

[dondiego]

PAM spray! I am going to try that.

[blue32]

1) What mold? I'm thinking the Lee 375-130-1R, but my buddy also threw in some round ball.
2) Powder? Can we use Pyrodex or 777 or just FFFG BP
3) Load? I see so many ideas-- everything from 9 GR to 25GR
4) Wad?
5) Cap? I've got a bunch of #11
6) Should he make paper cartridges, or just load loose components?

I've got a 61 Navy 6.5" barrel so kind of like yours but mine can take a stouter load.
1) I use the Lee 375-RB. It drops between 79-80 gr. using range scrap, which shoots just fine. I've used pure lead swaged balls with similar results.

2) I've used nothing but Goex fffg.

3) I attained the best accuracy with the 15 gr. spout on my horn. I've also used a 38 spl case full which comes to around 21 gr. for some more oomph with no problems.

4) Never used a wad. Seems like an unnecessary expense but then again, I've had no problems running just powder and ball.

5) I lucked into a tin of Remington #10, which are a perfect fit. I used CCI #11 on occasion but they must be pinched to stay on reliably. I also use CCI #10, which are too small. I cut the skirt on each one with pliers so its a tight fit but they work great.

6) Paper cartridges are a great convenience. They can be fiddly at times but half the fun is making them. I get more consistent accuracy with loose ball and powder.

A note on chamber lubing: In my experience it has not been necessary to lube each chamber after loading. The chain fire problem is a moot point if your ball leaves a lead ring when seated. Lubing each shot will leave a mess on your hands and you'll still have to clean at the same intervals. I lube every 6th cylinder with TC bore butter.

For more details including cartridge making, see my blog posts:
https://landngroove.wordpress.com/20...rti-1861-navy/
https://landngroove.wordpress.com/20...apn-ball-tips/

[Quiettime]

Nice gift! A 44 CB Pietta got me into casting a few years ago. Chain fires are caused by careless powder handling. You can live the front of the balls and sprinkle powder on there and still get a chain fire.

I use a sharpened cartridge case as a punch to make cork wads for over the powder and then put lube on top of that made from beeswax Crisco and olive oil. Then the ball goes over the lube. You also get pressure lubrication this way. It works. No leading ever and very easy bore cleanup

I also put ever so slight chamfer on the chamber mouths so the balls would swage and not shave. Less is more.

I also use pyrodex. It works well and is available in most stores where real BP is no longer

Enjoy!

[AllanD]

After I bought my similar pistol (used) in 44? 45? I actually went to Navy arms (when they still had the retail store in Ridgefield park, NJ) and bought a spare cylinder, as it turned out the cylinder was too lon and when I Turned it back by cutting the cylinder face on a lathe I did not chamfer the cylinders If you were to press an undersized ball with your thumb or attempt to pack grease in the chambers you will have a perfectly round ring of blood on your finger!

THAT cylinder shaves a beautiful ring from each ball, the original is heavily chamfered and does not.
Anyone care to guess which cylinder shoots better?