.454 bear defense loads

[454PB]

For either of those boolits, I have to seat deep and use the front crimp groove for reliable feeding. Yes, H-110/296 or Lil'Gun for maximum velocities. I don't have specific load data in front of me at the moment, but Hodgdon has load data available on line.

[Bigslug]

You're going to have plenty of penetration with non-expanding alloys in the 250-300 grain range. Penetration testing with cast has shown me that it's helpful to discard your notions of weight requirements that were based on cup & core hollow & soft points in which the cores are generally made of really squishy stuff. A typical 9mm/.40/.45 duty load stops in three milk jugs; some of the hunting soft points will go 4 or 5; I've done nine with a flat nosed .45 Auto 230 grainer cast of 23 BHN alloy being driven at GI hardball speed.

I'd be looking in the 250-275 grain range with a gas check, a big ugly meplat, using that slightly lighter weight to generate velocity to give a wider "bow wave" off that meplat. Unless you're braining or spining them, you're going to be counting on bleed-out to save your bacon, and the faster that happens, the better off you'll be.

The 2.5" version of that gun has always seemed silly to me: big cartridge with big powder capacity and no barrel to burn it up in. Somewhat defeats the purpose, IMO.

[hunter12]

You're going to have plenty of penetration with non-expanding alloys in the 250-300 grain range. Penetration testing with cast has shown me that it's helpful to discard your notions of weight requirements that were based on cup & core hollow & soft points in which the cores are generally made of really squishy stuff. A typical 9mm/.40/.45 duty load stops in three milk jugs; some of the hunting soft points will go 4 or 5; I've done nine with a flat nosed .45 Auto 230 grainer cast of 23 BHN alloy being driven at GI hardball speed.

I'd be looking in the 250-275 grain range with a gas check, a big ugly meplat, using that slightly lighter weight to generate velocity to give a wider "bow wave" off that meplat. Unless you're braining or spining them, you're going to be counting on bleed-out to save your bacon, and the faster that happens, the better off you'll be.

The 2.5" version of that gun has always seemed silly to me: big cartridge with big powder capacity and no barrel to burn it up in. Somewhat defeats the purpose, IMO.

Meplat?

The plan is to brain a charging bear but considering the adrenaline that will be produced in that split second, a solid brain shot may be off to one side or the other. I hope and pray I never have to find out but if it does happen I want to be ready

I've heard the same thing about the 2.5" barrels along with reduced felt recoil due to more powder not burning in the barrel. But you also loose front end weight weight of having a longer barrel. That being said, a shorter barrel is much easier and faster to draw and maneuver especially if your face to face with a grizzly.

[Bigslug]

Meplat = flat nose. Something in the .32" to .34" diameter works well for a .45 caliber bullet. Creates more of a crush and tear effect on surrounding tissue that a round nose.

Rather than severely hamper a .454 Casull's ballistics with a short barrel, which will also create a massive cloud of flame and unpleasant concussion, contemplate one of the standard frame 4 to 5 inch Redhawks or S&W Mountain Guns in .44 Mag or .45 Colt loaded to a tolerable level of recoil with the same kind of bullet I mentioned earlier. Ballistic performance will likely be on par or better, and it's far less of a compromise handgun overall. The shot to take in the circumstances envisioned here is through the nose into the brain - for which any of the above is more than ample horsepower, and a greater level of control to try a second time if needed might be a bigger asset than an obnoxiously blasty flamethrower. At the point one begins to worry about the holster-clear rate of a 2" vs a 4" barrel on a CQB draw against an 800-plus pound carnivore, you might as well consider filing off the front sight - not so much to prevent snagging on the draw, but mainly so it hurts less when the irate bear decides to re-holster it where the sun don't shine.

[vzerone]

My choice would be a 10mm Glock. Lots of fire power there.

[hunter12]

Meplat = flat nose. Something in the .32" to .34" diameter works well for a .45 caliber bullet. Creates more of a crush and tear effect on surrounding tissue that a round nose.

Rather than severely hamper a .454 Casull's ballistics with a short barrel, which will also create a massive cloud of flame and unpleasant concussion, contemplate one of the standard frame 4 to 5 inch Redhawks or S&W Mountain Guns in .44 Mag or .45 Colt loaded to a tolerable level of recoil with the same kind of bullet I mentioned earlier. Ballistic performance will likely be on par or better, and it's far less of a compromise handgun overall. The shot to take in the circumstances envisioned here is through the nose into the brain - for which any of the above is more than ample horsepower, and a greater level of control to try a second time if needed might be a bigger asset than an obnoxiously blasty flamethrower. At the point one begins to worry about the holster-clear rate of a 2" vs a 4" barrel on a CQB draw against an 800-plus pound carnivore, you might as well consider filing off the front sight - not so much to prevent snagging on the draw, but mainly so it hurts less when the irate bear decides to re-holster it where the sun don't shine.

The 5" ruger is on my list and I can load them down to 45 colt or someplace in between the colt and casull, whatever I'm comfortable with and will still get the job done.

With time and calm nerves I could easily put all rounds into a 2" (bear nose) or better group @ 30'. But when the nerves get going I have no idea where the lead will fly I want something that will hurt him regardless of where the bullet hits, thats why I'm asking about the heavier bullets. And yes I practice all the time but you never really know how you will react when the S really hits the fan...

From what I understand the 10mm is a good round and fully capable of doing the job but I prefer the 45 cal bullets over all others. Even the two legged predators think twice when they see that hunk of steel, although they are very few in this part of the US.

[wildcatter]

My choice would be a 10mm Glock. Lots of fire power there.

you'll need lots of em,, good luck!

I'll stick with my 25.5 grains of H110 and a cci mag small rifle primer with my 340 grain hard cast WLFN, I think 5 should be more than enough,,, like you state, even if not perfectly placed.

[lucifers]

While it's nice to talk about ammo choices, the gun is critical.

The gun that is too heavy or large will be left behind.

There is only one light gun with big performance ---- the 329 S&W. 26 ounces empty and stoked w/300 gr hardcasts and H110 is a serious hand cannon. Add some laser grips and good to go.

Yup kicks like a mule but if Mr Griz is trying to get on the horse with you, the recoil is the least of your problems.

The 10 mil can lay down fire faster but just can't push a 300 gr boolit at 1000 fps.

[Bigslug]

With time and calm nerves I could easily put all rounds into a 2" (bear nose) or better group @ 30'. But when the nerves get going I have no idea where the lead will fly I want something that will hurt him regardless of where the bullet hits, thats why I'm asking about the heavier bullets.

My point was that the extra bullet weight past a certain point isn't going to gain you anything (assuming you're casting hard-alloy solids, they penetrate A LOT) and that the extra velocity you get by going with a little bit lighter pill can equate to more violent displacement of tissue off the large, flat nose. Deep wound channel you don't have to worry about; we're talking about methods to make it wider.

As I said in my first post, a change in thinking is in order when it comes to bullet material and the mass of it required. In comparison to a 22-24 BHN quenched wheel weight bullet, a soft nose or hollowpoint cup & core pistol bullet is like stabbing with a knife made out of used bubble gum. That's largely what contributed to the conventional wisdoms we have today - such as 180 grain .30 calibers being popular for elk. When they don't open, shed weight, etc..., it's a completely different ball of wax.

Now, if you're planning to use a jacketed expander, then yeah, heavy is good.

As for "something that will hurt him regardless of where the bullet hits", I've seen little bitty deer that DIDN'T start out amped on adrenaline or testosterone take ten seconds to fall after having their hearts removed with large and/or fast rifle bullets. Even if you've got good shot placement, you can end up in your own reenactment of The Revenant. If you don't. . .prepare your Oscar acceptance speech. Hundredths of an inch in bullet diameter, an extra thirty grains of lead, or a couple hundred feet per second won't matter if it isn't delivered well.

[rosewood]

Been watching Razor Dobbs hunting and he killed a cape buffalo with a 10mm using a 200 grain hard cast. Also killed zebra, wildebeest, and of course white tail. Haven't seen him go after a grizzly though.

[Bill*B]

I'm told that a bear can cover 50 feet per second, when they explode out of cover. If there is 25 yards between you, that gives you 1 1/2 seconds before the beast is upon you. Now, take this question with a grain - or maybe a full block - of salt. I don't live in bear country! But - would not fast draw practice trump caliber, if you carry something reasonable, like a .45 Colt?

[vzerone]

you'll need lots of em,, good luck!

I'll stick with my 25.5 grains of H110 and a cci mag small rifle primer with my 340 grain hard cast WLFN, I think 5 should be more than enough,,, like you state, even if not perfectly placed.

You do know that Razor Dobbs killed two African Cape Buffalo's with a five inch Dan Wesson 1911 along with a who lot of other African big game right. He was using Sledgehammer hard cast and on the bone buff the bullet went through him from broadside heart shot. On the other he couldn't fine the bullet. Then remember the famous guide, name eludes me right at the moment, guiding some people on a fishing trip that had an encounter with one of the big bears and all he had was a 9mm pistol. Few shots in the neck and down it went dead. Now that I would have definitely been afraid to do. One would have many shots, 15 to be exact. I heard the 10mm was a big seller in Alaska. Me? Big magnum rifle LOL

[Edward]

I'm told that a bear can cover 50 feet per second, when they explode out of cover. If there is 25 yards between you, that gives you 1 1/2 seconds before the beast is upon you. Now, take this question with a grain - or maybe a full block - of salt. I don't live in bear country! But - would not fast draw practice trump caliber, if you carry something reasonable, like a .45 Colt?

Yup if you shoot a Glock 20 with a big mag full of boolits

[dubber123]

Even in a 2.5" barrel, the 454 performs. Another member on here was getting well over 1,300 fps from 300+ grain boolits, and said it wasn't hard to do. That's about all you can expect from most 45 Colts with much longer barrels. I don't have to worry much about a big bear attacking here, but if I did, it would indeed be a wide meplat heavy boolit moving along over 1,300 fps. if possible. I've shot a few boars with identical meplat hard cast, and something definitely happens at 1,300 fps. vs. 1,000. I'll take the faster load every time, but in something where you may need a LOT of penetration, weight matters. Linebaughs penetration tests are a good read if you think weight doesn't matter.

[robertbank]

I'm told that a bear can cover 50 feet per second, when they explode out of cover. If there is 25 yards between you, that gives you 1 1/2 seconds before the beast is upon you. Now, take this question with a grain - or maybe a full block - of salt. I don't live in bear country! But - would not fast draw practice trump caliber, if you carry something reasonable, like a .45 Colt?

This! Especially up here. For relevance my average draw from cover garment shooting IDPA is 1.5 seconds and I know the buzzer is going to go off. Now I am not fast for sure compared to Master class shooters but if you are not, 1.5 seconds might be a good objective for anyone who is not shooting competitions regularly. Make lots of noise when hiking in bear country and carry bear spray as a primary with a handgun as backup. There are lots of short barreled hand cannons to choose from including shotguns.

Take Care

Bob
ps there is a difference between hunting bears and protecting yourself from bears.

[wildcatter]

You do know that Razor Dobbs killed two African Cape Buffalo's with a five inch Dan Wesson 1911 along with a who lot of other African big game right. He was using Sledgehammer hard cast and on the bone buff the bullet went through him from broadside heart shot. On the other he couldn't fine the bullet. Then remember the famous guide, name eludes me right at the moment, guiding some people on a fishing trip that had an encounter with one of the big bears and all he had was a 9mm pistol. Few shots in the neck and down it went dead. Now that I would have definitely been afraid to do. One would have many shots, 15 to be exact. I heard the 10mm was a big seller in Alaska. Me? Big magnum rifle LOL

No I don't watch or base much of what I have acquired as proof watching videos or hearing he said she said. I know any 45 cal 340 grain slug or bigger, moving over 1200 fps will do way more than any clip full of 200 grain anythings.

I also know going fer heart shots and neck shots are a no no when being attacked by any dangerous game that is going to be on you in less than 2 or 3 seconds! You better be sure wherever they hit in that time frame they don't have to be exactly placed to stop or at least slow em down. I also know how much better shot on a range in the hunting field and when shooting the chit folks are, I also know how much that changes when a real bear is at a split second pizzed and attacking!

But yes know several who travel to NW and to Alaska, and I will assure you they are all relying on over 300 grain loads, and none tempting fate on the reliability of even the finest custom Semi Auto, all carry revolvers and all 45 cal. and over. From 63 years experience loading about every caliber made, that is exactly what I would carry as well. Now in the living room watching videos,, I see yer point, that's a different story,,,,

This is also like the high cap comments for self defenses, over a single big caliber. If you aint got control after 2 or 3 shots,, your probably no longer at risk of being shot,,,,,,, AGAIN! I'll take small capacity, with good power for the situation, and realize, dangerous game, or a dangerous individual, your life depends on a split second action, I want to make it count.

Life is much different when I'm hunting! Bill Troubridge killed a Bull Elephant with an Excalibur Recurve, but I'll bet if he was just out fer a stroll and that sucker attacked he would be opting for a different weapon,,,, apples to apples!

[robertbank]

wildcatter Grizzly Bear guides up here have been known to carry 1911's with 45-08 cartridges loaded with 200 gr LSWC going 1100 fps. Enough to break a hip or go deep enough to turn the electrics off. A Grizzlies bear's heart beats about 4 times a minute when he is running so bleeding out is not an option. Best defense is a good offence ie noise with bear spray & shotgun/short barreled handgun as a 2nd option. Attacks are pretty rare up here given the number of bears we have roaming around. I saw the Conservation boys out with their shotguns down the street about three weeks ago. I assume a Black Bear had wandered into town before setting down for his winter nap. Back in October they shot a Grizzly on the east side of town. Humans 2, Bears 0

Take Care

Bob

[wildcatter]

wildcatter Grizzly Bear guides up here have been known to carry 1911's with 45-08 cartridges loaded with 200 gr LSWC going 1100 fps. Enough to break a hip or go deep enough to turn the electrics off. A Grizzlies bear's heart beats about 4 times a minute when he is running so bleeding out is not an option. Best defense is a good offence ie noise with bear spray & shotgun/short barreled handgun as a 2nd option. Attacks are pretty rare up here given the number of bears we have roaming around. I saw the Conservation boys out with their shotguns down the street about three weeks ago. I assume a Black Bear had wandered into town before setting down for his winter nap. Back in October they shot a Grizzly on the east side of town. Humans 2, Bears 0

Take Care

Bob

Exactly, they weren't walking through the village with their glocks in hand, awaiting a confrontation, my point exactly. They weren't loaded with buckshot either, they were toten a lot bigger than 300 grain solid lead large caliber bear stoppers, not 200 grain high velocity newfangled slugs in smaller than gauge sabotts. My guess is they know better,,,,,

[charlie b]

From what I read of the guide's encounter he was firing from the side of the bear, which was threatening (not attacking) the clients. And, yes, he placed 10 to 15 9mm slugs in the bear's neck and it went down (I don't know if the bear was standing on hind legs or not). He was very lucky as well as being a good shot. Lucky cause the bear was not charging so he had a little extra time to make those shots. Also lucky that he had a shot angle where his 9mm was adequate for penetration to a critical area.

I have 'simulated' a charging animal on a range. Despite being a pretty good shot and not bad at drawing a pistol I failed miserably. I suspect most of the people in this forum would be in the same boat.

This is a critical 'game'. You need to know exactly where to place the bullet in various encounter situations. And, you need to deliver it accurately and quickly AT A FAST MOVING TARGET (and 'bouncing'?). The idea that you can be off target and stop a charge is not a reliable way to think about this. This is not a 'aim center of mass and shoot' kind of thing and you don't get points if you are outside the X ring.

[44MAG#1]

If you are talking about the guide using Buffalo Bore +P 147 gr hardcast 9MM ammo he fired 7 rounds. Not 10 to 15. I believe his name is Phil Shoemaker.