.454 bear defense loads

[44MAG#1]

And on it goes. Never will be an end to the bear protection thing. When this thread dies off there will be another. And another. And another. Nothing will ever be solved to anyone's satisfaction.

[robertbank]

Exactly, they weren't walking through the village with their glocks in hand, awaiting a confrontation, my point exactly. They weren't loaded with buckshot either, they were toten a lot bigger than 300 grain solid lead large caliber bear stoppers, not 200 grain high velocity newfangled slugs in smaller than gauge sabotts. My guess is they know better,,,,,

Not really. The difference is they are in hunting mode. They use slugs. They aren't carrying anything else other than their 40 cal Glocks because that is what they are issued and allowed to carry.

Bears in the main are going to leave you alone unless you surprise them. Any time there are two of us going to our fishing spot we do so making lots of noise.

Take Care

Bob

[charlie b]

If you are talking about the guide using Buffalo Bore +P 147 gr hardcast 9MM ammo he fired 7 rounds. Not 10 to 15. I believe his name is Phil Shoemaker.

Thanks for the clarification. It was still a very lucky day for him and his clients.

[44MAG#1]

Thanks for the clarification. It was still a very lucky day for him and his clients.

Yes it was but his escapade proves a few things.
1. Even an experienced person can do foolish things.
2. Evidentally a 9MM with a hard cast penetrates well.
3. Rapid fire with an inadequate caliber and bullet that hits is better than a large caliber with a heavy bullet and heavy recoil that is adequate that misses.
4. Someone who wants to carry a caliber they can't hit well with when firing without pressure will surely not do well when under pressure.
5. A cool head action is better than a knee jerk reaction.

Oh well.

[wildcatter]

Yes it was but his escapade proves a few things.
1. Even an experienced person can do foolish things.
2. Evidentally a 9MM with a hard cast penetrates well.
3. Rapid fire with an inadequate caliber and bullet that hits is better than a large caliber with a heavy bullet and heavy recoil that is adequate that misses.
4. Someone who wants to carry a caliber they can't hit well with when firing without pressure will surely not do well when under pressure.
5. A cool head action is better than a knee jerk reaction.

Oh well.

I agree on some of these points,
1)yes at some time or another we all have, this seems to be less of a habit as we age
2)Yes,,,, This time as luck would have it, I wouldn't rely on it all the time!
3)any miss is never good, I would think inadequate in the equation would make any answer or weapon possible, Hell a knife you can stick with is better than a miss, but I don't want to take a knife over a big bore and boolit even if I couldn't shoot it well?
4)No doubt, and if that is the case, that means a 22 LR is a better choice than a 38 special if you can't hit anything with the 38!
5) This is a fact,

[44MAG#1]

I agree on some of these points,
1)yes at some time or another we all have, this seems to be less of a habit as we age
2)Yes,,,, This time as luck would have it, I wouldn't rely on it all the time!
3)any miss is never good, I would think inadequate in the equation would make any answer or weapon possible, Hell a knife you can stick with is better than a miss, but I don't want to take a knife over a big bore and boolit even if I couldn't shoot it well?
4)No doubt, and if that is the case, that means a 22 LR is a better choice than a 38 special if you can't hit anything with the 38!
5) This is a fact,

On your answer to #3 if you or anyone else can shoot the big Bore well than you wouldn't need a knife. Care to explain?

[rosewood]

One always needs a knife...

[vzerone]

wildcatter Grizzly Bear guides up here have been known to carry 1911's with 45-08 cartridges loaded with 200 gr LSWC going 1100 fps. Enough to break a hip or go deep enough to turn the electrics off. A Grizzlies bear's heart beats about 4 times a minute when he is running so bleeding out is not an option. Best defense is a good offence ie noise with bear spray & shotgun/short barreled handgun as a 2nd option. Attacks are pretty rare up here given the number of bears we have roaming around. I saw the Conservation boys out with their shotguns down the street about three weeks ago. I assume a Black Bear had wandered into town before setting down for his winter nap. Back in October they shot a Grizzly on the east side of town. Humans 2, Bears 0

Take Care

Bob

Bob, I'd like to know where you got a grizzly bear's heart beasts 4 times a minute when running?

Lynne Nelson, a cardiologist in Washington State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine, and Charles Robbins, director of the university’s Bear Research, Education and Conservation Program, are collaborating on a research project that studies how the bears’ hearts work during hibernation.
The research shows that the bears’ heart rates decrease from around 80-90 beats per minute in the summer to about 18 beats per minute in the winter (ranging between 8-24 beats per minute). In people, heart rates this slow would cause congestion and heart failure to occur, usually within a matter of weeks. The bears show no signs of congestion even after four or five months of slow heart rates.
Even though heart muscle contraction appears normal, the heart muscle’s ability to relax and accept blood volume appears enhanced. This adaptation may help the bears’ heart chambers cope with the increased stress on the muscle that likely develops during the long pauses between heart contractions during hibernation. The enhanced relaxation of the muscle could help avoid congestion and congestive heart failure.

Maybe you had better research that.

[robertbank]

The bears heart beat us darn slow is the point. The only thing that will stop a Grizzly in it's tracks is either a brain shot or taking out the spine. Beyond that you will be long dead waiting for the bear to bleed out. I appreciate folks in some parts of the lower 48 just don't understand if you are up here in Grizzly country NW BC/Alaska any bear attack is going to come from short distance and will be a surprise. You just don't have time to unholster a large heavy pistol. S&W makes a 2" 44 Mag I believe which would be handy if your shotgun was somewhere else.

I suspect there are more threads on bear attacks on this forum than there are bear attacks across Canada in any given year. They do happen but they are rare and often fatal. Bear spray and a Ghetto Blaster might be a better ticket.

Take Care

Bob
ps Time yourself running 10 yards aka 30'. Assume a bear can run twice as fast as you can. Time your draws with your regular carry gun. Then ask yourself how fast you can draw a revolver that weighs twice as much as your carry gun and likely will have at least a thumb strap. I got $20 on the bear.

[rhouser]

Some days, the bear wins!

In a no notice, full on, short range bear attack, I am probably going to be mauled and may die. Fight or Footrace, I am in deep trouble in this scenario. There used to be a poster with a mouse flipping off an owl in the last second before being grabbed. It was titled "Last Great Act of Defiance".

I may "freeze up" and take the hit (I hope not), or I may have time to make my "last great act of defiance" (I hope so).

People have punched bears, stabbed bears, shot bears, screamed at bears, played dead, ran, climbed trees etc. Is my hunting knife going to be my last act of defiance? How about my 7" barreled SRH .454 Casull with tritium sights? Will I have my 12 gauge or 45-70 like when I am woods walking or my .375 H&H if I am hunting? I don't get to pick the time and place of my ambush.

Some days that bear is just going to win.

v/r rch

[pmer]

I think the big hand cannons with the "T-Rex" loads are great but I wonder if they are better suited primarily for hunting.

But for defensive shooting the question to be answered should be how big of a hand gun can one get 4 good shots on a close target in 5 seconds or so. Whether it's a 10mm, 45-08, 44 snubbie, 475 single action, etc. The bigger the boom the longer it takes to get that front sight back down on target. Shouldn't a bear defense handgun be quick to deploy and fast to shoot with as much power one can handle?

[wildcatter]

On your answer to #3 if you or anyone else can shoot the big Bore well than you wouldn't need a knife. Care to explain?

Simply if someone can't hit the target the size of a bear, it really doesn't matter, they may as well show up to the fight with a knife, the outcome will be the same. But am not disagreeing with you, any caliber you can hit with is better than any caliber you can't, in reality in these cases maybe the defender would be best suited with bear spray?

But I was not meaning they were not better off using whatever the could defend themselves with.

[nicholst55]

One always needs a knife...

Because there might be cheesecake. Or someone to stab.

[Metroxfi]

I always enjoy reading threads like this to learn not only what other people in other areas use and load but also what they feel comfortable carrying. Up in ND there's not a whole lot to worry about, I think the worst things you could run into on a hunt would be a mountain lion (which have been showing up more and more in the last few years) or a meth head (Which have been showing up more and more in the last few years...).

Anyway, I wanted to share an experience I had four years ago. In late spring I took my wife on an adventure to the badlands in SW ND (google Painted Canyon) to shoot some prairie dogs. We each had a 223 bolt rifle and a revolver, she had her GP-100 with medium loaded 158gr RNFP's and I had my S&W Governor with. I had my Governor with to utilize 410's for the rare but occasional Rattlesnake and mostly for the dumb little baby prairie dogs that sit and look at you from 10yds, but I had it loaded with 45 Colts and the Lee 452-300gc's and a stiff load of Unique under them for the hike out. The dogtown we visit is a solid mile hike from the nearest road, all on public land. The land is available to local ranchers for grazing their cattle and it's not uncommon to come across herds on the way. Well, shortly after we left the vehicle we saw a small heard that was easily spooked off and left us alone... for a while. The herd went south of us a ways and seemed to walk with us for a few hundred yards, I noticed they kept getting closer and suddenly they were walking right at us. We went north away from them and followed a fence line, a small pack of cattle broke off and looped around to come at us from the west. I started hollerin' and waving my arms to try to spook them off but they came right towards us at a brisk pace. I had the thought of shooting a round into the ground to scare them but I figured if I was going to have to fire a shot it would be at one of them.

Now don't get me wrong, I did NOT want to be 'that guy' who shot a rancher's cow because of something stupid but I also did not want to be trampled. I should also mention there were no calves in the herd, so there shouldn't have been any of that 'angry Mama' syndrome. Anyway, the small pack seemed to pick up the pace and were now within 50yds of us and moving fast. I told my wife to take her pack off and throw it over the fence and climb over. I finally drew my revolver when they were about 25yds away and I cocked the hammer as I pushed my wife over the fence. The pack sprinted and I thought "sh*t, I only have six shots, make 'em count." The pack got close, I mean spitting distance and stopped. I threw my hands up and yelled loudly again and they just looked at me. I was able to scramble myself over the fence to 'safety' where they continued to stare us down and follow us for a good distance before returning to the rest of the herd.

Not quite the same as a sudden rush from a bear but they can be just as dangerous. I had the six 45 Colt in the gun, plus a couple full moonclips of 45 auto with Lee 200gr RNFP's, I was confident that a square forehead shot would drop one in it's tracks but I was not confident in my ability to do it six time, reload, and do it a few more times with weaker ammo. Same would go for my 454 SRH, the first shot would have the best chance but after that I think most people's abilities would significantly decline. A 223 with 55gr HP's would wipe the fur from their forehead and my wife's 357 from the side wouldn't help much either. Seems like the answer would be a 'best of all worlds' with a square, heavy bullet doing a moderate velocity in a gun capable of holding more than six rounds all while being capable of being easily rapid-fired, which isn't going to happen. Maybe instead of working loads and using the best-for-scenario components and equipment we should just carry what we're comfortable with and can use confidently and put more effort into avoiding certain situations. There's always room for discussion and improvement, just don't let it get to your head and think that what you have is inadequate. There's always someone who's done more with less.

By the way, I searched through my phone and found a picture of the bull that was in the herd. We chased him off as we parked the car, my wife snapped a picture of him before he scampered off to join the rest. He didn't give us any trouble.

[Eagle59]

My recipe is a 50 caliber handgun pushing a 400 grain plus FN cast bullet at 1100 ft/sec. You have to play with the weights and load to ensure accuracy but that is plenty of killing power for large game. The 500 Linebaugh kills wonderfully. I just ordered a BFR in 500 JRH and I can load it to get what I want. When you are using a handgun to defend against a bear attack the last thing you want is a gun that you can't handle for quick follow up shots because one shot most likely isn't going to drop an Alaskan brown bear unless you are able to hit the spine or brain. You really need a round capable of 5-6' of penetration. It doesn't take high velocity to get that.

[murf205]

I think the big hand cannons with the "T-Rex" loads are great but I wonder if they are better suited primarily for hunting.

But for defensive shooting the question to be answered should be how big of a hand gun can one get 4 good shots on a close target in 5 seconds or so. Whether it's a 10mm, 45-08, 44 snubbie, 475 single action, etc. The bigger the boom the longer it takes to get that front sight back down on target. Shouldn't a bear defense handgun be quick to deploy and fast to shoot with as much power one can handle?

Not to mention that your hands will probably be wet from rain, especially if you are fishing close to the coast. That's why I use Hogue finger groove grips on my 4" 629. I've only had one encounter and that was on the banks of the Anchor River on the Kenai Peninsula. He was on the other side(not far at all) and walked out on the bank while I was tying on a fishing rig and not making any noise at all. Since he seemed to be in a charitable mood, I simply backed away and found another spot to fish. 99% of the time this is how it plays out. With that said, not long after I came home, a guy had to shoot an old rangy brownie in the city limits of Soldotna. He used a SRH in 454 IIRC. But.......common sense rules when it comes to big bears, rifles are a close 2nd.

[robertbank]

I think the big hand cannons with the "T-Rex" loads are great but I wonder if they are better suited primarily for hunting.

But for defensive shooting the question to be answered should be how big of a hand gun can one get 4 good shots on a close target in 5 seconds or so. Whether it's a 10mm, 45-08, 44 snubbie, 475 single action, etc. The bigger the boom the longer it takes to get that front sight back down on target. Shouldn't a bear defense handgun be quick to deploy and fast to shoot with as much power one can handle?

This! and yes.

Take Care

Bob

[dhom]

You guys can take this for what it is worth. I had a cousin that guided for Griz in Alaska and he carried a .41 mag loaded with 250 hard cast [22-24 BHN] at approx. 1200 fps. He had stopped 19 attacks but not number 20. Later found out the bear was hit with 5 out of 6 bullets and died.

[calm seas]

H110/W296 are extremely accurate powders in the pistols, because they need about 18" of barrel to fully burn. My understanding is both powders yield very low Sds in pistols because of the unburned powder. I use a Cast Performance 360 gr WFNGC with H110, in both my SRH 7.5 inch, and my Ruger Alaskan 2.5", waiting on some 320 gr from Penn Bullets. My recommendation for my wife is an AR-15 with a 30-round mag of FMJs. Her hands are not big enough to hold onto the Rugers. While a single 55gr FMJ may not break a grizz' shoulder or spine or skull, you get a full clip into it, and it will regret opening THAT!! hornets nest.

[bigboredad]

I'm curious about the velocity everyone's talking about. In a defensive bear attack I don't see how 1300 for is going to out penetrate the same bullet moving at 1000fps. at 5 feet I think the extra fps is just extra recoil. From my own experience not against bears but hard would a 340gr .45 at 950fps penetrated the same as the same bullet going 1300+. If it was me I'd get the 4 inch redhawk 415gr bullets keep the velocity down to 1000-1050 take a shoulder out to create distance then finish it off but I've never been in that situation and never will. Just a guy that loves .45+ calibers and big fat heavy bullets. Good luck hope you never need to find out

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