Plunk Fail .45 a.c.p.

[OS OK]

You've had about all the advise there is...the only other move I can think of would be something like this...

Attachment 208602

I've been loading these at 1.220" before I got a new throated barrel...if you want to try some PM me and I'll send them, foot the bill for shipping too.

c h a r l i e

[JimB..]

Thanks, Jim
The silly problem was not silly. The emptied case failed plunk by the same distance of 0.068". I reset the crimp die and got the distance down to 0.45" from having the boolit base flush with the hood. But, the case is now visibly narrowed at the mouth area and the boolit position in the case is evident. The neck area is 0.460", while the center of the case (Remington - Peters) is .0467". The piston lever resistance on the Lee turret press is pretty high.
Is that case distortion normal for cast boolits?
Won't that increase the pressure?
Does it greatly reduce the number of times the brass can be reloaded?

I have followed Sierra Bullets FAQ advice of no crimp if the boolit does not move on impact.
I will be getting the Lyman gauge that has been in my watch list for two days.

Thanks for help!

Good, so you may have bullet and barrel issues, but you won’t know until you resolve your brass issue. The problem likely originates in sizing, adjustment of the crimp die won’t help it.

@44MAG#1 question is spot on, will a full sized case drop into the chamber? Actually prepare 25 cases as you would normally through resizing, but not expanding, and try them all in a single gun. How many fail to drop in? Make sure that your sizing die is properly set to touch the shell plate.

I am a bit confused though, if the resized brass is the problem then it wouldn’t plunk with jacketed bullets either. Have you been using a Lee factory crimp die with your jacketed loads, but not with your cast loads? I dislike the FCD.

You may also want to pull the bullets from 10 factory rounds that you know plunk so you have 10 primed cases that you know are good. Remove your decapping pin and load the rounds with a cast bullet just as you have been. Try plunking those.

[joe3of3]

You've had about all the advise there is...the only other move I can think of would be something like this...

Attachment 208602

I've been loading these at 1.220" before I got a new throated barrel...if you want to try some PM me and I'll send them, foot the bill for shipping too.

c h a r l i e

A generous offer, but I can not accept it.
I have gotten a lot of good advise, from good people and I do appreciate that.
Time for me to stop, test, consider, then decide.

JimB.. had me redo my crimp, which narrowed the gap between the boolit stopping point and the hood. With only 24 cast boolits on hand I will have to cast a few more before testing them at the indoor range tomorrow.
The second option is to buy a different mold. The third is to send the barrels to DougGuy to have them freebored.

Not the simple change I expected when adding cast boolits to plated boolits for reloading.

Thanks.

[Dusty Bannister]

Quote: The third is to send the barrels to DougGuy to have them freebored.

I do not think that is the correct term for what you are needing. I think you want to use the term "throated".

[joe3of3]

Good, so you may have bullet and barrel issues, but you won’t know until you resolve your brass issue. The problem likely originates in sizing, adjustment of the crimp die won’t help it.

@44MAG#1 question is spot on, will a full sized case drop into the chamber? Actually prepare 25 cases as you would normally through resizing, but not expanding, and try them all in a single gun. How many fail to drop in? Make sure that your sizing die is properly set to touch the shell plate.

I am a bit confused though, if the resized brass is the problem then it wouldn’t plunk with jacketed bullets either. Have you been using a Lee factory crimp die with your jacketed loads, but not with your cast loads? I dislike the FCD.

You may also want to pull the bullets from 10 factory rounds that you know plunk so you have 10 primed cases that you know are good. Remove your decapping pin and load the rounds with a cast bullet just as you have been. Try plunking those.

Yes, all of the sized empty case plunked and were flush with the hood. The sizing die touches the shell holder. The turret plate has always had a slight vertical movement when the ram is raised, but 1K Missouri Bullets (lubed RNL) were no problem up to two weeks ago when I loaded the last one.
I use the Lee Turret press with carbide dies. The Lee factory crimp die is the only kind I have for .45 caliber. Two years ago Berry's stated that the crimp should not be deep enough to mark the plated bullet. I lightened the crimp at that time. That light crimp was used since then on plated and factory made cast bullets. At this moment the crimp die is set to (in my uneducated opinion) extreme crimp.
Your earlier post showed me that empty, unflared brass failed the plunk test. The visible narrowing of the case does allow the boolit to nearly plunk...a moderate knuckle bump seats it fully, so a fast moving slide should have no problem. The lead just above the case rim has a short mark where the shiny area from sizing was disturbed.
I appreciate the help.

In six years of reloading, 15,200 large pistol primers have been used, with about 800 used in .45 Colt, with no problems.

[joe3of3]

Quote: The third is to send the barrels to DougGuy to have them freebored.

I do not think that is the correct term for what you are needing. I think you want to use the term "throated".

DougGuy used both terms, and I may be wrong, but I think freebore is the slight distance between the bullet and where the lands and groove begin; throating is the widening or shaping of a ramp or entry area. Tapering the lands throats the barrel, creating a freebore where there was none...I think.

I have fitted hammers, grip safeties, a barrel, etc., but will not alter seers or this kind of work. That is for DougGuy and other experts.
Thanks for posting.

[Grmps]

Try going softer on the lead, 45 ACP is a slower caliber & doesn't need to be over 10 bhn. 50/50 COWW / SOWW (lip on wheel weight/ stick on wheel weights (pure) + 2% tin apr 9.2 BHN
The harder the alloy the larger the boolit will be from the same mold.
Use the LFC die, crimp and pull boolits and measure until it starts to shrink them then back off to where it didn't that should give you the smallest cartridge without compromising the diamiter of the boolit..
That LASC link/chart I posted shows the different alloys and their shrinkage/expansion.

[joe3of3]

Will a full length sized case go into the chamber so the case head is flush with the hood. That is a simple question. If not than there is something wrong with the sizing of the cases. If a new case will go into the chamber far enough for the head to be level with the hood than that is a sizing problem if the sized doesn't.
Is the turret head cocking enough to cause misalignment in sizing and seat in and crimping of the cartridge?
Most 45 Auto chambers have enough slop that even fat Bullets will chamber if the bullet is seated deep enough.
My XDs had no throats and I had no problem. More than likely you need to be looking elsewhere for the problem. Such as in the sizing process of the cases.

Yes, 44MAG#1, sized cases all dropped into two barrels with a resounding "plunk" sound. The turret plate always (since 8/2010) had a slight vertical lift when the ram was raised. But seats everything, from plated .45 a.c.p. to Missouri bullets (lubed, RNL) in both .45 a.c.p. cases and .45 Colt cases with no problem, even with minimal flare. My cast boolits needed a rather large flare to stay upright without being held (major finger ouch!).
JimB.. had me check, and reset the crimping die. That lowered the boolit so the bottom of the rim lip was level with the top of the hood, but did not plunk. A moderate knuckle tap seated the boolit.
What concerns me is the amount of crimp (0.460") which leaves the shape of the boolit clearly visible on the case; the center of case is 0.470".
I will make a few more and try them. If that fails, I can send the barrels to DougGuy, buy a different mold, or stick with only plated. I do enjoy casting, but have to consider many factors (my age, limited budget (semi-retired, not of my choice), smoke restrictions (indoor range).
The various lubes I have tried made too much smoke, so I made a batch of powder coated (Harbor Freight red) that were acceptable. And I want to try the clear coat from Smoke4320, which would not look like a mini-lipstick and probably smoke less.
That is why I need to test boolits now, before I commit to shipping barrels, buying molds, and buying lead (down to a one pound ingot and 4 pounds of extra dive weights).
Your input is really appreciated.

[44MAG#1]

Have you actually measured your cast bullet after sizing them? Not just relying on the measurement on the size die.
A true .452" diameter bullet shouldn't need anymore flaring of the case than a .452" jacketed.
I use the same flare on Jacketed Hornady's, Berrys plated and cast.
I loads rounds that will work in my most minimum spec barrel so they will work in the others. Not the other way around. I crimp a minimum of at least the same diameter of the case where the bullet body is after bullet is seated generally somewhat more.

[gwpercle]

The truth is that 1R 45 design is not really correct for the 45 acp profile. Look carefully at a GI hardball load and you will see the bullet is tapered....the 1R 45 has no taper and the sides of the untapered boolit runs into the rifiling. You have to deep seat depending on how much throat is in your barrel. Just no other way around it unless you get the barrel throated . Or dump the that design.....that's what I did.
That Lee 1R 45 mould is the only mould I have ever sold...that 1R profile just sucks. I sold it for $1.00 at a yard sale and felt bad about taking the guys money. A Lyman 200 grain SWC solved all my problems. I would have gone with a Lee truncated cone but back then they didn't exist

[Bzcraig]

Joe - now that you clarified budget constraints and the desire to cast but trying to decide whether to jump in with both feet, this would be my suggestion. After making sure you have no die adjustment issues or brass issues, as suggested, either get a hold of a .451 sizer to size those boolits down a bit more then powder coat them which will eliminate any leading, send some of your boolits to someone to size and PC (I will if I have a .451 sizer) or see if someone else uses that mold who can size, PC and send you some to try, easy and cheap way to help make your decisions. Sorry, just checked, no .451 sizer.

[Grmps]

You could try a smaller boolit



I had a 451 but I enlarged it for other purposes since I didn't need that size

I could send you some:
.452-185-SWC 45-185 BB 2 RCBS
.452-230-TC 452-230-TC 6 LEE-6
.452-230-2R -TL 452-230-2R-TL 6 LEE-6

PC'd and Sized @ .452 to try. If you want PM me your address

SWC and TC may have feeding issues in some semi-autos

[vzerone]

You could try a smaller boolit



I had a 451 but I enlarged it for other purposes since I didn't need that size

I could send you some:
.452-185-SWC 45-185 BB 2 RCBS
.452-230-TC 452-230-TC 6 LEE-6
.452-230-2R -TL 452-230-2R-TL 6 LEE-6

PC'd and Sized @ .452 to try. If you want PM me your address

SWC and TC may have feeding issues in some semi-autos

That Lyman bullet is a darn good one!!!! Very accurate out of all my pistols.

[DougGuy]

AFAIK, everything from the end of the chamber to the top of the lands where they reach their full parallel height, is the throat. Freebore is exactly what the term says it is, it is a section of sometimes parallel bore that is free of rifling, and sometimes the freebore is tapered as in the case of the SAAMI spec'd 9mm throat. It does not call for any parallel freebore, it's all on a one or one and a half degree taper. Freebore is part of the throat.

Leade-in is the section of the throat where the lands begin and taper upward in height to their full profile, being just in front of the freebore, leade-in is also part of the throat.

[wimms]

Black magic marker used around the boolit, from ¼” above, to ¼” below the case mouth becomes smeared, or removed, from one or two very small areas of the lead just above the case mouth when pliers used to turn the boolits where they stopped, about 0.068” from case rim to the barrel hood. Marks were near, but not at, seam lines from the mold; they still appear even when the very small seams were filed away.

Correct OAL depends on the bullet nose shape for barrels with short freebore.


Can you notice how same OAL is wrong for those different nose shapes?


The result is something like this:


To solve your problem, you need a different mold with different nose shape.
Resizing bullet down will not help.

[turtlezx]

you using the wrong boolit its 1 r for revolvers need 2r or seat really deep to make them work

[Kosh75287]

If this has already been mentioned, then please overlook this post. I didn't see it, though. Has the OP tried crimping his reloads in a step separate from the seating step? He might also try using a dedicated taper crimp die, to apply the crimp in a separate step. I know that this doesn't address the underlying problem, but it might keep you shooting, while you look for it. Just a thought.

[Char-Gar]

Quote: The third is to send the barrels to DougGuy to have them freebored.

I do not think that is the correct term for what you are needing. I think you want to use the term "throated".

Freebore/leade/throat are all terms used to describe the portion of the barrel in from of the chamber where there is no rifling.

The use of the term "throat or throating" is problematic in a 1911 45 ACP barrel, as throating also means the modification of the rear end of the chamber to allow rounds to be chambered without interference from the rear end of the chamber. Because of that, I use the term freebore for the front of the chamber and throating for the rear of the chamber.

[OS OK]

Freebore/leade/throat are all terms used to describe the portion of the barrel in from of the chamber where there is no rifling.

The use of the term "throat or throating" is problematic in a 1911 45 ACP barrel, as throating also means the modification of the rear end of the chamber to allow rounds to be chambered without interference from the rear end of the chamber. Because of that, I use the term freebore for the front of the chamber and throating for the rear of the chamber.

Prolly oughta consult a 'Proctologist' on 'modifying the rear end of a chamber'...he oughta have a technical term for it! . . .

[vzerone]

Prolly oughta consult a 'Proctologist' on 'modifying the rear end of a chamber'...he oughta have a technical term for it! . . .

Actually modifying the barrel feed ramp is called barrel ramping and chamber entry throating.