.38 spec. Rifle data

[salvadore]

I probably posted something similar but the responses evolve into .357 rifle data or suggesting a site I've already visited, or guessing. YouTube has been a bust etc. I would like to hear from anyone who loads .38 spec. in a rifle and knows what they are getting, and what powder and cast bullet works the best for them. I had no idea how hard getting some info on this would be. Thanks for any help.

[Outpost75]

I load .38 Special for use in a rebored Martini Cadet fitted with 10X Unertl 1" scope for testing .38 Special wadcutter ammo, and also for a relined Tranter-Patent rook rifle. Both barrels are 16" twist of rifling with a .38 Special "AMU" chamber having a 3 degrees, Basic forcing cone measured directly from the .379" chamber mouth diameter at rifling origin with no cylindrical ball seat.

I do not exceed standard pressure .38 Specials in the Tranter and don't exceed published +P in the Cadet. I do not use slower powders or work up "rifle only" .38 Special loads, because doing to defeats the purpose of having a low-noise load suitable for dual-use in either rifle or revolver.

Some measured velocity and accuracy data fired from the Cadet with 25" barrel:

Bullseye Charge Establishment with Accurate 36-155D, wheelweight alloy, Winchester .38 Spl. cases, WSP, 1.55" OAL

Attachment 208524

3.0 Bullseye 825 fps, 7 Sd, 27 ES
3.5 Bullseye 901 fps, 12 Sd, 37 ES
4.0 Bullseye 995 fps, 10 Sd, 26 ES - Most accurate load 1.5" 5x10 shots 50 yards 10X Unertl
4.5 Bullseye 1096 fps 7 Sd, 20 ES +P - Do Not Exceed, Do Not Reduce OAL!

Bullseye Charge Establishment with Remington 148-grain HBWC component bullet, Winchester .38 Spl. cases, WSP, 1.16" OAL flush seated

2.6 Bullseye 787 fps, 24 Sd, 77 ES Avg. 2.5" 5x10, 50 yds. 10X Unertl
2.8 Bullseye 806 fps, 20 Sd, 57 ES Avg. 2.2" 5x10, 50 yds. 10X Unertl
3.0 Bullseye 908 fps 8 Sd, 18 ES Most accurate load 1.5" avg. 5x10 shots 50 yards 10X Unertl
3.2 Bullseye 969 fps 7 Sd, 23 ES Avg. 2" at 50 yds 5x10 10X Unertl
3.5 Bullseye 1014 fps, 8 Sd, 25 ES DO NOT EXCEED!, Avg. 3" at 50 yds. 5x10 10X Unertl

Bullseye Charge Establishment with Accurate 36-190T, Winchester .38 Spl. case, WSP, OAL 1.59"

Attachment 208525

3.5 Bullseye 864 fps, 5 Sd, 19 ES 2.5" 5x10 at 50 yds. 10X Unertl
4.0 Bullseye 1005 fps, 8 Sd, 28 ES 2" 5x10 at 50 yds. 10X Unertl
4.2 Bullseye 1055 fps, 7 Sd, 25 ES Most accurate load 1.18" 5x10 at 50 yds. 10X Unertl
4.5 Bullseye 1095 fps, 15 Sd, 55 ES +P Do Not Exceed or Reduce OAL! 2.5" at 50 yds. one tgt.

Factory Loads Fired as REFERENCE:

Rem-UMC 148-gr. WC old stock 1960s 900 fps, 11 Sd, 29 ES 1.5" 5x10 at 50 yds. 10X Unertl
Federal 148-gr. wadcutter 849 fps, 11 Sd, 37 ES 2" at 50 yds. 5x10 10X Unertl
Norma 158-gr. LRN old stock 1970s 941 fps, 14 Sd, 44 ES 2.5" at 50 yds. one group
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. lead HP +P 1125 fps 33, Sd, 98 ES 3" at 50 yds. one group

[salvadore]

Appreciate the information outpost. It appears that standard pressure loads using fast powders isn't going to be the snappiest of bullets. I'm trying to find out if a 150 160gr bullet can be pushed to 1150 to 1200fps out of a 20" barrel. Maybe using aa5 or unique even nonstandard 38 powders like 2400. Thank you for the help and since you appear to be a member of the Common Wealth, God Save the Queen.

[mnewcomb59]

6.3 gr of power pistol is a stiff +p and will do about 1200-1250 in a rifle with the 158-rf Lee. From Brian Pearce's article.

I have also gone as high as 8 grains of PP with the 125-rf but now I just load the light bullets with fast powder at +p for about 1250 fps.

[Outpost75]

Appreciate the information outpost. It appears that standard pressure loads using fast powders isn't going to be the snappiest of bullets. I'm trying to find out if a 150 160gr bullet can be pushed to 1150 to 1200fps out of a 20" barrel. Maybe using aa5 or unique even nonstandard 38 powders like 2400. Thank you for the help and since you appear to be a member of the Common Wealth, God Save the Queen.

A 160-grain bullet at 1150 fps is going to be +P.

It will most likely be less accurate than a subsonic load due to transonic buffeting as velocity decays below the speed of sound.

Good loads will be under 3" for ten-shot groups at 100 yards and my best loads with the subsonic 190-grain bullet approach 2 inches at 100.

"Good" lots of factory target wadcutter should be about 1-1/2" at 50 yards from a test barrel, and the Unertl-scoped BSA Cadet equals that with the best lots.

[salvadore]

Newcomb, was that a handloader article of Pearce's? Which issue? Thank you.

[Kestrel4k]

A 160-grain bullet at 1150 fps is going to be +P.

It will most likely be less accurate than a subsonic load due to transonic buffeting as velocity decays below the speed of sound.

Good loads will be under 3" for ten-shot groups at 100 yards and my best loads with the subsonic 190-grain bullet approach 2 inches at 100.

"Good" lots of factory target wadcutter should be about 1-1/2" at 50 yards from a test barrel, and the Unertl-scoped BSA Cadet equals that with the best lots.

Actually, my experience with regards to the above highlighted text has been the opposite, when using the relatively slower pistol powders such as Unique, 800x, and Blue Dot.
(On the other hand, you are writing about very fast powders such as Bullseye, I see.)

My Ruger 77/357 can deliver consistent 3/4" 5-shot groups at 50 yds with my three powders listed above, loaded to 1150 fps muzzle velocity. I haven't run the numbers recently but I'm fairly certain that the bullets drop below the speed of sound well before 50 yds is reached.

However, decreasing charges of the above powders to obtain 1080 fps MV immediately opened up 50-yd groups to 3+ inches.
Furthermore, cases were notably sootier - indicating inconsistent burn.

Substantial pressure is just /so/ helpful for obtaining subsonic accuracy - so much so that I've abandoned my work with .357 cases to work with .38Spl instead - the smaller case volume has proven to be very helpful along these lines.

----------

I have had much more success with subsonic accuracy w/ Red Dot, as I can build enough pressure for good powder burn, without exceeding ~1080 fps.
Trail Boss also provides very good accuracy w/ subsonic velocities - it seems to do very well at low pressures.

I'm sure that in your situations the particular paragraph above is correct, but IME not with the medium-rate pistol powders such as Unique/800x/Blue Dot.

My tests were using 158gr & 180gr JHP, and 230gr cast wadcutters; rather than your 190+gr cast, which is another complication towards making valid comparisons.

Best regards,

[plainsman456]

A good rule of thumb is load for the pistol the rifle will be faster.

Makes for less problems that way,at least for me in the 41,44 and the 45LC.

[Harter66]

Had a Marlin 1894CB 18" 38/357 . I was lucky with it as it would share brass with the 6" Sec 6 . The most impressive part was that virtually without regard to load it picked up 400 fps with assorted 158 cast and 140 XTP . H110 didn't make me happy with it but that was a different lifetime . Red Dot and Unique were rock stars in both guns with 38s . I didn't do anything exotic like rifle only I did take 20 or so mouth split cases and cut them down to 9×25 and use 9×23 data , just because it seemed a shame to throw away the brass .

[Texas by God]

Outpost has to be American. He has a thousand guns!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

Outpost has to be American. He has a thousand guns!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

ROTFLMAO! I wish!

Like most people I sell or trade off the stuff I haven't used in a few years, and use the proceeds to get new toys.

Once I find something that does a particular job the best, I get rid of those I tried which were less than completely satisfactory for one reason or another. You must be careful in this process not to discard excellence until you are absolutely positive you have achieved Nirvana and perfection...

My "Bunny Gun" fetish is like that, Harry Archer instilled in me the utility of having some sort of rifle which could exploit whatever handgun caliber you were likely to have around. That is how I ended up with multiple single-shot rifles in .32 ACP, .32 S&W Long, .38 Special, .44-40, .45 ACP, .455, .45 Colt... Need to do a .380 Rimmed .775" (.38 S&W)...

[Chill Wills]

This has been interesting. Loading the 38 Special for rifle is what I have been thinking about lately too. My winter project is building a 38 Special offhand rifle for up to 100 meter shooting. This will be a sporter rifle really. Not a dedicated schuetzen offhand rifle.

I was thinking I would follow the example of the accurate 22 match ammo, 1050 -1080 FPS to see where that lead.
I have a Green Mountain 0.349" by 0.357" 27" raw blank. These are their measurements, not slugged yet.
I chose the 38 Special case because its abundance both in my junk case bucket and often found abandoned in the some of the places I loaf.

I may have some work to do to get the accuracy I am hoping for.

[FergusonTO35]

I have fired thousands of .38 Specials out of my Marlin 1894, both factory and reload. I never found a round it wouldn't shoot decently, it really likes the Lee 358-125-RF and 358-158-RF sized to .358 or as cast. Most loads clocked around 250 fps over my 4" S&W 10-5. Currently I feed it the Lee 358-125-RF over 6 grains IMR 4756 in .357 brass, probably switch to Unique or HS-6 when the 4756 runs out.