Beginning to think of moving to .69 RB for my shotgun!

[Y-man]

I plan to be in the US in January [Viva Las Vegas!] and i'm thinking of getting me a .69 RB Mold for my Rifled Barrel Mossberg 500 A shotgun: in-cup load. Remember guys - all I do is pour out Birdshot and replace with slug or RB [In a SAFE way, obviously.]

Any one have an old .69 mold gathering rust somewhere? Anyone planning on being in Las Vegas for Shot show 2018?

[Mr_Sheesh]

Pumpkin ball loads are rather fun I'm probably going to get a mold too, in past I'd bought balls (Working lots of hours, 80/week sometimes, back then.) Been too long. Enjoy!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Y Man: yes I will be at SHOT too. You should milk that show for all it's worth. I get tons of free stuff every year.

But my other suggestion is that you should buy a 12 GA Lee Loader off Ebay and have it shipped to the hotel you are staying at. You could also buy wads and other supplies while in town and either ship them home via UPS or in your baggage.

You can get just about anything known to man in LV, and there are plenty of gun stores. The town is easy to get around in (rental car with navigation)

Also a good time to pick up accessories for your guns etc. while there.

Plan on going home broke.

Randy

[longbow]

Y-man:

I was just thinking about you. I was finishing up a 12 ga. (0.732") sizer for my slugs and though that I haven't heard from you or seen any posts recently. I was wondering how you are doing.

I have been absent from slug shooting for some time but will be rectifying that shortly. I've been filling slug bases with hot melt glue and getting ready to go shooting again.

Nothing wrong with getting a Lee 0.690" RB mould to try but as I'm sure I've mentioned, my results with 0.690" RB in shotcup for smoothobre have been dismal. The ball is too big for most shotcups I have found and even those it fit sheared petals. I suspect that would be worse for rifled gun.

Having said that, I have limited resources locally so have not tried every type of shotcup available by any means. I do have some BPI load data for 0.690" RB's in their shotcups but have not tried them. I can send you that load data.

Also, "725" posted that he gets good results using 0.702" RB's in shotcups in rifled guns. So... just because I failed doesn't mean it won't work. 725 uses soft lead though and that may make a difference. You will be using hard lead.

I think you may be better served by 0.678" RB's though. They fit many regular shotcups very well. If they are a bit loose to pick up rifling spin, a paper tube can be inserted in the shotcup then the ball to tighten up fit.

I have both moulds and can cast you some 0.690" RB's and some 0.678" RB's to try. It is legal for me to ship bullets to the States (not legal for Americans to ship the other way without an FFL at least) and with round balls I doubt anyone would care even if it wasn't legal "lead balls" are not bullets.

If you can send me a shipping address I will cast and ship so you can take some lead balls home with you. Possibly the hotel will receive a package for you? Or maybe a Cast Boolits member would receive them for you then get them to you while you are in Las Vegas.

I'd be happy to help if I can.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

My pumpkin ball loads use a .662 round ball and 1/4 Felt Cushion under the ball and a WAA12 wad, The wad petals are .038 at the bottom and about .035 at the center of the ball. or .732 overall.

Point here is that this combo yields 3" groups at 50 yards which is pretty hard to beat.

I would expect better from a rifled barrel with the same combo as the wad petals would definitely pick up the rifling.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

I'm not sure the shotcup would transfer the spin to the ball in a standard shotcup. There's not a lot of contact with a round ball. That wad has thicker petals than what I am using though.

Greg Sappington told me he had an article about using 0.662" RB's in thick steel shot wads in rifled gun. The accuracy was said to be pretty good and velocities quite high. 0.662" balls fit pretty tight in a steel shot wad so should minimize or eliminate skidding.

I'm curious about 0.678" RB's in shotcups in rifled gun. If they skid at all they can be tightened up by adding small a paper tube/shim into the cup before the ball. At about an ounce in wheelweights they can be driven pretty fast so should be accurate and effective. I do like round balls!

My results are the same as yours with RB's in smoothbores out to 50 yards or so. "Pretty hard to beat" is right on the money!

Easy to cast, easy to load and shoot well. What's not to like?

Longbow

[Spudgunr]

For what its worth a .575 round ball fits in the bottom of an RP12 wad pretty well (and would also be 20ga size). You could save a bit of lead that way. The RP12 (and other remington wads) have ribs on the inside that take up quite a bit of room (and make stacking buckshot awkward). A .690 wouldn't be bad, particularly since it'd be a nice 1-1/8 ounce size, but it does seem like you'd need to trim wad petals or use something like a light brush wad (gualandi biorientable) due to the size. Otherwise your wad petals would need to be under .02" to fit a 12ga bore very well (unless you have a backbored barrel). Many of the gualandi wads also have ribs so a smaller ball may work in them as well, and gualandi wads should be relatively available.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Longbow: Rifles for shooting Round Balls typically had fairly slow twist rates, and this was because of the short bearing surface on a round ball. Even with a patch the bearing surface is still pretty short, and on the balls we are talking about it is probably less that 1/8" if that.

Point being no matter what you are not going to get any serious amount of spin on the ball, and really a ball doesn't need it. All you are trying to accomplish is to get enough spin to eliminate the 'Knuckle Ball effect."

As you know a Knuckle Ball flies thru the air flat, or with no spin. The result is that the ball wobbles around as it flies and the only thing keeping it going the same direction is Inertia.

With even a small amount of spin the ball's flight becomes stabilized around the center of the spin, and that flight follows a trajectory or more properly a Trajectory and a Curve. The Trajectory is governed by Velocity and Aerodynamics of the ball,(Ballistic Coefficient),,, and the Curve is governed by whatever point of index the balls (heavy side) exits the end of the barrel. If the second factor was not present all the balls would conceivably go thru the same hole. Dismissing all the other minutia and variables that come into play.

In a Rifled barrel any contact is going to rotate the wad to some degree. Also the ball will get some of this as well.

Any is better than none.

As far as "predictability of results," forget it, this is strictly trial and error.

Randy

[centershot]

I discovered the advantage of the tapered rib on the RP12 wads while experimenting with RB loads in my smoothbore. Many use one or two hard card wads under the ball to avoid the wad collapsing. I found that cornmeal served the same purpose, forming nicely to the shape of the ball upon crimping. When fired, the ball would "set back" (2nd law of motion) and would expand the wad to barrel I.D. because of the tapered rib. They shoot nicely into 4" @ 50 yards from my smoothbore. The load is:

AA hull (old style)
WW 209 primer
19.0 gr. Red Dot
RP 12 wad
1/2 tsp corn meal
.662" RB
Fold Crimp
Velocity = 1300 fps

The RP 12 wad is slit to the bottom of the cup. The SP12 is slit only halfway and I'm wondering if that might benefit those with a rifled bore.

[longbow]

Randy:

The slow twist for round ball is the basis for my slow twist rifled choke tube design... machining started but as yet unfinished.

A 12 ga. round ball wants something like 1:120" twist. Most modern shotguns are rifled with about 1:36" twist which is fast for a big ball.

I decided I wanted a compromise twist of 1:72" so built a short rifling machine to rifle a choke tube with wide deep grooves and narrow lands. At 1:72" a ball or square slug should stabilize well and longer slugs to maybe 1 1/2 diameters should also stabilize. The rifling machine works very well and one day I will finish the choke tube.

I had thought that the old Paradox guns had slow twist but Ross Seyfried wrote that the one he has is rifled with 1:36" or 1:38" twist IIRC... much quicker than I would have thought. They were intended to stabilize 750 gr. solid bullets but I would have thought the fast twist would be more than required and that bullets would have tended to skid or strip. The guns were choked and had aggressive rifling though so maybe the squeeze stopped any tendency to skid or strip. Also, I am not sure that all Paradox guns were rifled that fast. There seems to be little info on these things. Big round ball rifles, as you say, tended to have very slow twists.

I do believe though that a round ball in plastic shotcup will have to be squeezed fairly tight to pick up enough useful spin especially at 1:36" twist. My preference for rifled gun I think is full bore square slug or 0.735" RB. I did not see any signs of skidding on recovered 0.735" RB's I shot out of a rifled Remington 870 even with a fairly warm load and the very small bearing area as you noted. These were air cooled range scrap balls so hardish but not heat treated. Accuracy at 50 yards was very good (I think) running about 2" for three 5 shot groups. Had I not been so punchy from shooting 30 rounds though my smoothbore first I suspect groups might have been even better.

Back to balls in shotcups... if you can get some thick steel shot wads your 0.662" balls should do well in rifled barrel. They will be squeezed tight! Its certainly worth a try.

Longbow

[Y-man]

Many thanks for the responses guys...
longbow: sorry for the long silence: work [And out of work] pressures as well as a few sad bereavements in the family. Also just overcame a bout of acute depression... But I'm all good now!

With all these variables which could possibly affect my stuff: I think I will leave off on the .69 round balls for now: remember i do not really have control over what kind of wads I will get here.

So I will get a Lee Key Slug Mold instead.

And maybe some of the best wads that would work with it in a Rifled Barrel. I am leaning on your experience here: what wads should I order for the Lee slugs?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Y-Man: the kinds of wads are really not that important. You can always make wads with a hole punch, and wrap a cylinder of paper around the ball or slug to take up the slack. Also one bag of 500 wads will last for a long time. WAA12 or the Claybuster equivalent will work for slugs, balls, buckshot or birdshot. It's all I use.

I don't know what tools you use to load, but a 12 ga Lee Loader off Ebay (there's a bunch on there right now @$50 US) would be a big help to you, and also a Roll Crimp Tool from Ballistic Products would give you the option of a roll crimp instead of folding the existing crimp closed. They can be ran with a Drill Motor if you don't have a Drill Press.

Hope this helps.

Randy

[Y-man]

Hello guys!
Y-man here: back from Las Vegas: so sorry I did not make an effort to link up with you W.R. Buchanan... I was a bit overwhelmed with the magnificence of the event... And also quite busy doing some work for the Blog, under whom I was invited.

I did take your advice and came back with 3 LARGE suitcases of various things: both related to shotguns and other stuff. [And a small carry-on with my clothes!]

I stayed in a place where I was not too sure about the safety of my packages [First package had been opened and taped back when I got there] so I made all my deliveries to the Amazon Locker facility down the road: a service where Amazon delivers to a lock-up automated box [In this case at a Circle-K Fuel Station.] where you enter a Code pre-received via email into the touchscreen and the door opens for you to pick up your stuff [After looking around carefully and NOT going there at night, obviously...] Amazon Locker worked like a charm!

I got me a Lee Key Slug Mold: 7/8 size. I have already started casting a few and loading too...
I got 500pcs of WAA12 Wads off Amazon too... [Claybuster 12 Gauge 7/8 oz Bag of 500 Shot Shell Wads]
I initially wanted to pick up a Lee Electric Lead Casting Cauldron: but excess baggage issues!
I also got a Lee 00 Buckshot mold too.

I did some modifications to the molds:
1. Slug mold: did some filing to increase the weight of the slug nose. And to incline the key part for easier release.
2. I also had to use a wide drill bit [20mm] to widen the pour hole [Remember I am simply using a converted ladle to hand-pour...]
3. I also did some widening on the sprue plate hole. Smoothened everything perfectly.

I also did some modifications to the Buckshot mold: got rid of the sprue plate [When I cast: I simply use scissors to separate my buckshot.]
I also sacrificed the top-most cavity to achieve a good targetted pour - Drilled and filed the top-most cavity into something like a funnel.
Finally: I increased the necks into each of the other two cavities from the factory size to something about 3mm to facilitate easier pouring of lead.

They both work very well now. Lets just say warranty is out of the question!

I have done some casting of a few slugs and buckshot and can't wait to travel north to go try them out.

[bikerbeans]

Y-man,

I look forward to reading your posts. Please keep us in the loop on your adventures.

BB

[Y-man]

Just some pictures of my load-out...

[Y-man]

Well, I am back from some shooting, and I delayed in reporting in because I got so disappointed with the Lee Key Slugs.
I shot a few at a target about 46 yards away and did not get even ONE slug on a 10-inch circle. I had several slugs miss the backstop board [3ft x 4ft size] completely.
What happened? [In my view]
The Lee Key Slugs are simply too short and are not stabilised at all in any way by my shotgun. So NO accuracy.
What do I do now?
I go back to my good old Lyman 525 slugs – this time using the Claybuster clone wads.
With the wads already at a good height for this slug, I will not be using any disks under the slug. Instead, I will fill the cavity with [Cheap] super glue, and sprinkle Baking Soda on top of that - it then solidifies to a STRONG, solid, rigid LIGHT filler. [Google it - this Super-Glue/ Baking Soda thing is used to fill cracks in Helicopter Rotors!]

I will also roll the sides on some rough grit sandpaper to knurl it for good grip by the wad.
Let’s see how that goes.











I shot a few of my new buckshot rounds too: forgetting that a rifled barrel flings shot out in a wide circle – I did not hit anything: even the tree that my target leaned against.
I will be shooting Buckshot out of my smoothbore Turkish Semi-Auto shotgun going forward. It has a choke too, so should be crazy-accurate [If I can get my improvised sights right.]



Many thanks for all your encouragement.

[longbow]

Y-man:

While I can't say my accuracy with Lee slugs has been really good, it also hasn't been really bad... more like mediocre. This is with smoothbore. Last range report is here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...e-Range-Part-3

The slugs as cast in wheelweights didn't perform particularly well but those I ran through my sizer then paper patched to tight fit in wad to bore worked pretty well.

Have you done the push through method to check wad/slug/bore fit? Not sure with rifled gun but I'm guessing that if the slug/wad is groove diameter or a little more then the fit will be very tight and push through may not be practical but verniers or micrometer will get you very close. If the wad/slug pushed through easily it is too loose for sure.

Have you slugged your bore to find groove diameter?

Are you using equal weight slug to shot? If lighter you may be getting poor powder burn. I just had a bad round of shooting which was my fault for using a load recipe using Unique for 1 oz. slug but with the Lee 7/8 oz. slugs and got some bloopers and inconsistent powder burn. A change to Green Dot and recipe for the 7/8 oz. slug solved it. Point being is you don't know what powder is being used and slugs produce less bore friction than shot so you may be getting inconsistent powder burn.

Have you pushed a slug in wad through the bore to see how tight it is? I am guessing that a proper fit in rifled gun would be pretty tight so maybe hard to check but certainly if the fit is loose/easy push through it is likely too loose.

I am surprised that your Lyman sabot slug isn't performing better unless the slug/wad/bore fit is too loose.

I am also surprised that your 0.732" RB isn't performing better too. I'd have though a hard cast round ball of groove diameter or a bit over would be very good. I got very good accuracy from 0.735" RB's cast from wheelweights in a borrowed rifled gun and same loads did very well to 50 yards anyway from my smoothbore (0.733" bore). There again, if you haven't checked your groove diameter that may be the issue if it is large.

So far my best results with Lee slugs are with sized then paper patched 1 oz. slugs. I really don't like the taper on the slug as it is way more than wad petal taper so I made a hammer sizer to remove the taper and the slugs wind up at 0.672" then get one wrap of paper or cross strips so one paper thickness which brings them up to tight fit to bore.

You should check the slug/wad/bore fit to make sure that it is quite tight or I am sure the slug will not pick up the spin from rifling. It is something to try anyway. You can paper patch up to tight fit using tracing paper. One or two wraps on a Lee slug should do it.

Not sure what else I can tell you... likely nothing useful anyway.

Good luck!

Longbow