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Thread: Taming Recoil in a Mossberg 500 TActical Shotgun

  1. #21
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    rking: My Citori XT doesn't bother me to shoot 200-250 rounds in a day with only a tee shirt on. It is back bored and ported from the factory and the vast majority of Trap and Skeet guns are as well and have been for the last 25-30 years. Most Factory made O/U's are as well as it is just the way they make the barrels now.

    It costs more to do the extra Machining to the barrels so those guns cost more. mY XT was $2000. A M500 is an inexpensive Shotgun, and the vast majority are sold in some kind of Tactical Configuration. There is even on Combo where you get a 28" Sporting barrel and a 18"short barrel so you can have both worlds covered. I think that gun sells for about $350 ish.

    My Father in law gave me this gun about 25 years ago. It was unfired and he bought it at Big 5 for $205. I bought the 20" barrel and Magazine tube from Brownell's for $116 and the Magpul furniture came a few years ago for @$100. So I've got about $250 in this gun.

    I have used this gun a lot in local 3 gun shoots which might have 10 Shotgun targets in a string so I never experienced the same recoil issues I did in the Tac Shotgun Class where I fired 20 shots in a few minutes every time we came to the line. The cumulative effect of that much shooting in a short period of time is what has gotten to me. The gun fits OK and I will refine that as I go along. I have also reworked the inside of the action so the gun cycles like it has had 1000's of rounds thru it. It runs pretty nice.

    There is a lot of back and forth as to the effects of Back Boring but the general consensus is that it makes the guns recoil impulse much smoother as opposed to the abrupt hit without the treatment. It also dramatically improves patterns. My gun shoots 00 buck at about 12-15" at 15 yards. Hans Vang Guarantees 7" at 25 yards and all the tests I have read over the last few days have confirmed that. He also has done thousands of these mods and people wouldn't pay for it if it didn't work.

    AS far as porting I have lived with it on my Citori for 10 years and the only problem is cleaning the plastic from the wads out of the holes. the holes tend to work like a cheese grater. A Bronze Brush on an Electric drill solved that problem. The more you shoot the gun the less that occurs as the holes get chamfered on the inside more and more as the gun is shot.

    The reason why I want to fix this gun is because Mossberg's are the Defensive Pump Gun. They are easier to run and don't malfunction as much. I'm sure the Rem 870 crowd with object, but all I saw in my class was people fumbling with their 870's. I had no problems adapting to the drills quickly because I was not fighting the gun.

    One main issue is that the ejection port is smaller than the Mberg. This slows down the Port Loading of single rounds, and also complicates unloading and clearing of stove pipes and type 3's. The lifter on an 870 has a fence on the right side which gets in the way when trying to unload the gun or clear a type 3 (failure to extract) malfunction. The Mbergs don't have this problem.

    I have some more work to do on this gun to get it where I want it. When done I will be able to shoot it like I need to. I have an old Browning A5 I want to "Tacticalize" as well. That will be easier now that I know what I am going to be doing with it

    Under 100 yards Shotguns are devastating weapons. They have the ability to launch many different payloads from Non Lethal little Missiles to Slugs that are powerful enough to take down anything in N/A. It is fun to play with them, and I enjoy it.

    More guns not less!

    And NO 20ga. is not an option!

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  2. #22
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    I think your A5 would be the better option. The long recoil of the gun can be tuned to the loads shot so that the recoil is spread out over the cycling of the action. Most people think A5's are hard kickers but they are not when the friction rings are correctly set and the amount of lube on the mag tube is just enough for proper function. I've shot an A5 20 ga for 50 yrs in skeet and sporting clays and there is not a more reliable or softer shooting auto when set up correctly. I recently picked up a Remington Model 11 (A5) in 12 ga that mimics my 20 for soft (12 ga) recoil and reliability. Beretta 390's are super reliable and fairly soft shooting. I kept track of the first 50k rounds through mine and found it would run trouble free (no FTE or FTF) for 2K+ rounds between cleanings.
    "Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle

  3. #23
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    I actually have 2 A5's. My cherished 1964 Light 12 that my uncle gave me which has been kept in it's case for it's entire life with Full and Modified barrels. It is in 99% condition with only a few belt buckle marks on the stock from him walking around in the weeds with it. He fired exactly 22 rounds thru it in the 30 years he owned it, and gave me the 3 remaining rounds of Remington #6's with the gun.. I fired 4 boxes thru it the first day I shot it at a Dove shoot in Santa Paula CA.

    If you shoot with both eyes open, seeing the barrel coming back at you on the first few shots is a truly enlightening experience. Whoa!

    The other gun is a 1950 model I got at the local Hardware store with the sole intent of making a Fighting Gun out of it. It has some problems that need to be fixed like it doesn't hold the bolt open after the last shot which is annoying. I have the replacement parts just never got around to fixing it.

    I also saw a Rem 1100 yesterday that had a 14" barrel, and the gun was the handiest shotgun I have ever handled. It belongs to a Cop friend and it was registered as a Short Barreled Shotgun. The barrel on that gun had the Hans Vang Treatment 20 years ago before Hans moved to AZ from Santa Barbara CA.. It was his Patrol Gun for many years before he retired.

    Lots of things to look at with these guns.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  4. #24
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    If the "gun was brutal with normal #8 birdshot which are the lightest loads on the market",
    I think gun fit is a huge contributor here.

    I had a rifle which kicked and, after I thought about it, a large component was cheek slap.
    Brownells sells an adhesive backed sorbathane pad in various thicknesses that you peel and stick
    to the cheekpiece on the stock. It eliminated the cheek slap for me.

    Possibly the fit, angle, and height of the magpul stock is an un-optimal fit for you and makes you
    contort your body is such a way as to make the recoil be harder.

    I am not an avid shotgunner, however I have read a few very good articles on stock fit and its
    impact on felt recoil and shotgunning performance, and its clear to me that it makes a significant difference.

  5. #25
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    I have the same Mossy 500A combat shotgun with a 20" pro ported cylinder bore barrel. I have never looked at the forcing cone so it's whatever they did at the factory.

    The pro porting will allow me and others who shoot this gun rapid fire, to keep the muzzle flip to below 1" and it basically stays on target as fast as you can fire it. The heavier the loads, the more reduction in muzzle flip from the ports so it is more or less self compensating from load to load. Police officers who fired it on the range with department reloads of #4 buck were very impressed and very pleased with the acquisition of the target on follow up shots.

    Quote Originally Posted by edp2k View Post
    If the "gun was brutal with normal #8 birdshot which are the lightest loads on the market",
    I think gun fit is a huge contributor here.
    I should mention also that the butt stock has been shortened 3/4" and the factory rubber recoil pad is retained, although considerably rounded at the top to facilitate rapid mounting in cases where a jacket or other heavy clothing might hinder the upward movement of the butt toward the shoulder. The officers who fired this gun very much liked that butt stock modification as well.

    That said, I would NOT recommend porting for a home defense shotgun because the shooter is not safe carrying the gun at hip level with the stock hanging past his/her backside in an effort to shorten the amount of barrel that protrudes from the front, (which gives the bad guy a convenient handle to grab in the disarmament move). The blast from the port would put powder particles and other debris in a stream directed at the shooter's face and eyes. Porting is ONLY beneficial when the shotgun is mounted and fired from the shoulder or full length forward fired from the hip.

    Several full power strings of fire with a full 8rd magazine would not be too much of an issue with high brass loads. 200 rounds, yes probably so. I don't intend on firing for very long inside my house, one or more of us is going down before the mag is empty, so for my purposes I will just live with what I have and hope nobody ever causes the worst case scenario.
    Last edited by DougGuy; 11-28-2017 at 06:19 AM.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  6. #26
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    While having Hans do your barrel is well worth it for the patterning, I'm thinking that it might not help you out so much with recoil. . .Maybe. . .

    The low-recoil tactical loads are well inside my personal tolerance level, so consider where this is coming from, but I can't really tell any difference with the Vang Comp ports shooting those. For me, the "shoot it all day" load is still a shoot it all day load.

    Now when you start loading the magnum, 1600 fps stuff, I start to notice the change, and I think it's largely because the more gas you put through the ports, the more effect they have. . .but you're still dealing with a magnum load, and it's still not something you'll want to burn a case of per sitting.

    I think fiddling with stock geometry, mercury capsules, and more onboard weight will give you better mileage. Some folks like 'em, but I personally can't abide the Knoxx stocks - too many years of shooting guns without bouncy parts; they extra motion they bring is distracting. . .REALLY distracting.
    WWJMBD?

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  7. #27
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    Doug: thanks for the input. I have been playing with the stock fit on this gun and EDP: thanks for the heads up on the stick on Sorbothane from Brownell's. I was wondering where that stuff came from. I will get some. Might have to get another check piece for the stock at the same time. They are cheap.

    Watched a video on Youtube from the Magpul Shooting School that was given by Chris Costas and Travis Haley. Most all of the shotguns in that class had Vang Comp Barrels, and most were LEO Rem 870's.

    Lots of good info on gun handling in that video but somehow Youtube screwed it up and it ends at 18:56. It is over an hour long. The Magpul Videos on Carbines and Pistols are also excellent instructional videos on Dynamic force application and really give you some things you can practice that will make your shooting better.

    Youtube is free! so go find them, and there is plenty of info there on this subject.

    Going to shoot the gun again tomorrow and then send my barrel off to Hans later this week. Will let you know how much difference it makes to this gun.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  8. #28
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    Shot the gun again yesterday and it was better. Might be getting used to it a little more. Had no problem with my Trap Loads or my Pumpkin Balls as both are the same Velocity @1100 fps. was able to hit Silhouette Chickens at 50M easily off hand and Pigs at 100M about 2/5. once again offhand.

    Ran into some more issues that are being corrected today.
    1. Pic rail on bottom of Fore End to mount Light/Laser has to go somewhere else. It was punishing my support hand index finger shot after shot.

    2. My sling arraignment is not going to work as done. The rear mounting for it doesn't allow for me to get the buttstock under my arm so I can have the muzzle up for reloading. Thus the muzzle is down which complicates the process.

    Tonight I will be fiddling with it more and I got the Magpul Sling mount that places the loop between the front of the stock and the receiver. Then the rear of the sling will move there and I will have the option of moving the front of the sling to that place also or removing the sling quickly if desired. Even in the sling there is plenty of room to get the butt under my armpit, so I can load with the muzzle up which is much easier.

    There is a lot to getting a gun like this sussed out, and the reasons are not fully understanding how the gun was to be used. I can do a Carbine or a Glock in an hour. Once I get the Shotgun figured out, the setup on other guns will go faster as well.

    Having a good time getting this sussed out. 3 gun shoot in Santa Barbara this weekend.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  9. #29
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    Low recoil Federal Flite-Control buckshot loads like these have put cylinder bore and tight patterns in the same sentence!

    https://www.gtdist.com/products/guns...lts-2-3-4.html

    https://www.gtdist.com/products/guns...lts-2-3-4.html

  10. #30
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    Set up the sling with the Magpul Piece parts and it works great. I can have single point, or two point attachment, or get rid of the sling all together in seconds.

    Still need a sheet of 3/16" 30 Duro Sorbothane with adhesive backing to cover the comb of the stock. Nobody is giving that stuff away!

    After that am looking at buying the Forcing Cone Reamer from Brownell's as it appears I have several other guns to do this to also. I can do that in my shop.

    The porting is no problem and can be done on the mill easily.

    Here's some pics of the slings mods.

    1. Sling in two point
    2. Sling in single point
    3. Front sling mount
    4. Brown Coat Tactical Velcro Side Saddle and for $15 these are definitely the ship! I got 3 of them and all you do is rip the empty one off the side of the gun and slap a full one on. Works great! Adhesive Backed Velcro stuck to the receiver, no permanent mod to the gun. You carry the full ones in a regular carbine mag pouch.

    It's these little additions and tweaks that make the gun work right. All you have to do is practice with it enough to find the weak points.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-01-2017 at 06:59 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  11. #31
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    Managed to pick up another older Mossberg 500A today at the Local Hardware store. Nice "lightly used" condition. $160! Needs to be taken apart and cleaned!

    It is a Field Gun that spent most of it's life in a closet. It has Wooden Furniture and a 30" Vent Ribbed Barrel, I don't know what the choke is, and don't really care as the barrel will get cut off to 18" or possibly shorter if I can find a way to legally do it.

    Another quick project and this gun will be the stay at home SD Gun.

    Took me exactly 4 days to find this gun, started looking for one last Wednesday!

    Needless to say they are laying around everywhere just waiting for a new owner to come along and put them to use.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-02-2017 at 04:12 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  12. #32
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    Hate to say this....but lengthening the forcing cone does nothing to reduce recoil. Just a great way for a gunsmith to make money. BTW, this does not imply those offering the service are crooks...most believe it to be a fact.

    If you think about the physics of it, it becomes apparent.

    Lengthening the forcing cone will usually improve patterns and that is why it has a place in reworking shotgun barrels

    There was an excellent thread about this on Trapshooters.com many years ago. It got heated. So I am not going to debate it here.

    BTW I had tge forcing cones on my CAS ported before I became educated. Wasted a bunch of money.

    Reducing recoil can be accomplished by adding weight, adding cushioning, lowering payload, lowering velocity, adjusting pitch, and making the stock fit you.
    Don Verna


  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Reducing recoil can be accomplished by adding weight, adding cushioning, lowering payload, lowering velocity, adjusting pitch, and making the stock fit you.
    THIS! Exactly! As in the use of cast boolits, fit is king!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

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  14. #34
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    Don: the physics are fixed and I realize that, and you have more experience behind a shotgun that most people here at this site.

    The point of the Forcing Cone Extension is to lessen the abruptness of the Recoil Impulse as it will be spread out over a longer period of time, so the "Perceived Recoil" will be less. How much this shows up is to be determined.

    Also the muzzle rise on this gun is excessive and the Porting will reduce that. That is what is causing the gun to smack me in the cheek.

    I have a pretty good idea of how this gun acts right now. The only thing left to do to the fit is to refine it a little more,(ie: play with length of pull) and I am waiting for Limbsaver Recoil Pads that directly fit the Rem 870 plastic stock to become available again, as nobody has them in stock including Limbsaver..

    My Citori XT is a cream puff to shoot and I can run 250 rounds thru it in one day with no adverse effects whatsoever. It has a long forcing cone and porting so there must be something to be gained by it or Browning wouldn't do it.

    I am experimenting with this gun as it is cheap to work on. I can do both the porting and forcing cone in my shop and only need the reamer to do it.

    I will post all my findings here for everyone to read and they can make their own decisions based on how much of my BS they believe.

    Randy
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  15. #35
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    Randy--The porting will buy you a small amount of recoil reduction, not very much. I proved it to myself years ago with my A5 20 ga. I set it up A5's so the just function reliably by use of the friction ring placement and amount of lube on the magazine tube. I want the gun to absorb as much recoil and function reliably as it can. Before sending my barrel off to Proport some years ago I fired a number of shots behind my house and noted where the shells ejected to. I set the remaining shells in the box aside for when the barrel returned. Upon receipt of the barrel I took the gun out and tried the ported barrel. The gun would not recoil far enough to eject the shells with the ported barrel and required I change the friction ring setting to light loads. As you know the A5's are strictly recoil operated so AFAIC porting does do some reduction of recoil but not a lot. I would not pay to have it done on another gun. In your case with your abilities it will help a bit. Forcing cones IMO are strictly a pattern thing and questionable at that. Good luck in your quest.
    "Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle

  16. #36
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    Don't want to come across as an all-knowing, lecturing jerk, but...:

    If lengthening the forcing cone (and back-boring) reduces recoil, it's because it reduces muzzle velocity as well. If anything, increased friction between the payload and the forcing cone could actually recuce recoil as it would "pull" the barrel in a forward direction.

    Porting the barrel will work, but only to a small extent in a shotgun as porting works by redirecting the high pressure gasses behind the payload - payload being the weight of both powder and bullet(or shot, wad and powder).

    In a typical rifle cartridge the weight of powder can be anywhere from ten to fifty percent of the bullet weight. Combined with the high pressure/velocity it makes up for a substantial part of the recoil. In a typical shotgun load of 550 grain, the powder weight is only about three to four percent of the payload, and the working pressure is only a fifth of the rifle's. By porting the top side of the barrel you no doubt will reduce muzzle flip, but the actual recoil reducing is to small to be felt in any meaningful way.

    I'm going to keep my big trap shut now...
    Cap'n Morgan

  17. #37
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    A Remington SuperCell recoil pad is much more effective than a Limbsaver.
    Do a little googling.
    It also happens to be much cheaper, ~$18 vs. ~$35

    Since you have the magpull stock on your mossberg, a Remington SuperCell for a plastic stocked 870 should fit.

    The Cheek-Ezz Sorbothane 3/16" thick stick on cheekpad (by Kick-Ezz) did wonders for eliminating
    the cheek slap on a favorite, hard kicking rifle I had.
    As I mentioned before, Brownells

  18. #38
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    Sometime late 90s early2000, Ballistic Specialities built a Beretta 391 to be the softest shooting gun possiable. There was an article in ,probably, Shotgun Sports documenting the build and effects of the various changes.
    In 1995 I spend 300$ to back bore,port and extend forcing cones on a 26 inch 870 barrel for sporting clays. I did the work for better patterns not recoil. As far as I can tell there was negotiable effect to the patterning or recoil reduction. I shoot an 870 all the time by preference and have settled on a 28 fixed mod for sporting and trap. I use a 26 fixed skeet for both skeet games. The fancied barrel vs the skeet barrel show no difference in recoil with AA super handicap loads or 7/8 international loadd, I just can't tell any difference, side by side on the same gun. I did this last week due to discussions on this thread. Any patterning difference is on detectable on target breaks, I ain't counting holes in paper. The fixed barrels are from 1966 and 1970, un altered in any way. Gun is the 1966 Skeet C with the original factory pad.
    The fancy barrel goes turkey hunting, it's my only 3 inch barrel.
    There have been some ought right fights over this issue , I stay out of it generally.
    Randy, I know you can do your own work and want to see for yourself. Totally understand that. It is the only way for you to be sure. I posted the above for anyone reading this thread. Also test was a blind as possiable, five stand with my son swapping the barrels randomly and I tried not to know. 50 birds with 2 extremes in ammo. Subjective but best I could think of without instrumentation. I'm an engineer, so I know the test is not difinitive, but we're looking for noticeable to a human.
    Last edited by rking22; 12-11-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    Don: the physics are fixed and I realize that, and you have more experience behind a shotgun that most people here at this site.

    The point of the Forcing Cone Extension is to lessen the abruptness of the Recoil Impulse as it will be spread out over a longer period of time, so the "Perceived Recoil" will be less. How much this shows up is to be determined.


    Randy
    Randy,

    Look at Capt's post.

    Think about this way. Say you had a really severely abrupt forcing cone than significantly constricted the bore. All those pellets are forced together and jammed up trying to get out. Now we know the gun would likely blow up. But the Impact of those pellets reaching the constriction will force the gun forward, reducing recoil.

    As to your other comment about why Browning does it. First, it may improve patterns with some wads. Most importantly it is marketing. People think it is something that works, and most will never know any different. The placebo effect is a proven fact. If someone thinks it is better...it is better.
    Don Verna


  20. #40
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    Does anyone have a method, other than "seat of the pants," whereby I can produce a meaningful test to show what the before and after results are in this experiment ???

    With some empirical numbers it would put this to rest once and for all.

    "If anything, increased friction between the payload and the forcing cone could actually reduce recoil as it would "pull" the barrel in a forward direction."

    I have to disagree with this.

    If the payload had any significant momentum when it hit the forcing cone, and was moving on its own without being pushed forward by a charge that is producing an opposite reaction, I could understand how this might be happening. However since the forcing cone is directly in front of the chamber, and is a rather abrupt step, the actual effect would be that of simply shoving the payload into a smaller hole which would increase movement in the opposite direction (ie: to the rear).

    In this case also I could see the longer forcing cone actually working like the Captain suggests. The pressure required to introduce the payload into the longer forcing cone with a more gradual constriction would be less, thus less recoil, as well as pushing forward on the barrel at the same time. Also the time from ignition to full pressure would be longer and thus a longer smoother recoil pulse would be generated,, as opposed to a shorter sharper pulse.

    In the end the amount of recoil generated would be the same overall however the amount of time that it took to accomplish it would be longer and thus "Perceived Recoil" would be lower.

    I cite the difference in recoil impulses of a 300 WM versus a .45-70. the 300 is short and really fast. the .45-70 is a longer slower push. Compare a 150 gr bullet at 3000 fps to a 300 gr boolit at 1500 fps. the amount of work being done is the same however the time it takes to happen is considerably quicker with the 300WM thus the recoil impulse is quicker and more abrupt. Also why I don't own one! However I do own a .45-70 and routinely shoot 325 gr boolits at 15-1600fps with no adverse effects. A considerable difference in "perceived recoil" between the two.

    Does any of this make sense?

    Randy

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check