7.65 Argentine 200g cast data

[vzerone]

The 27-28 gr of 4895(never used AA 2495, but have used canister H and I and surplus from two tear down vendors)is a good one with dacron, without dacron the ES run high from inconsistent ignition. I believe improper use of dacron, ie a wad or not enough to completely fill the space between powder and bullet base lightly compressed, has resulted in ringed chambers, but never when used correctly.

Both you and I know about the rifle that got ringed. Are you saying the owner and very experienced reloader used Dacron improperly? I highly doubt it. 9.3x62Al is one of the more knowledgeable reloaders of cast bullets on this forum.

[Larry Gibson]

What you mean is that you exceed the pressure limit of the alloy.

That is not what I mean at all.

Over the past 8+ years I have proven through sound demonstration and testing the existence of the RPM Threshold. Your continual denial and ridiculous attempts to prove me wrong without any sound testing of your own to prove otherwise is really getting ridiculous. You are trolling again. However, I will respond to your troll with facts as usual.......again.

FACTS:

Given .30 caliber barrels of 10, 12, 14 and 16" twist barrels chambered to .308W, 30x60 XCB or 30-06, the same bullet cast of the same alloy, a slower burning powder and with all other load details being the same (if you cast and load correctly) except the powder charge;

"Accuracy" is based on 10 shot groups of 1.5 moa or less at 100 yards using either the Lyman 311466 or the NOE 30 XCB 310-165-FN cast of Lyman #2 alloy.

The 10" twist barrel will lose accuracy at 1950 - 2100 +/- fps at around 28 - 30,000 psi.

The 12" twist barrel will lose accuracy at 2350 - 2450 +/- fps at around 35 - 38,000 psi.

The 14" twist barrel will lose accuracy at 2600 -2700 +/- fps at around 40 - 45,000 psi.

The 16" twist barrel will lose accuracy at 2900 - 3100+/- fps at around 49 - 52,000 psi.

Notice the bullet is the same cast of the same alloy. The pressure increases from well under the supposed "pressure limit of the alloy" to well over the supposed "pressure limit". But we see that accuracy remains the same across a spectrum of 1950 fps to 3100 +/- fps. So why is it that the 16" twist barrel can maintain the same accuracy at 3110 fps at a much higher pressure than the 10" barrel can only maintain at 2100 fps at a much lower pressure? Obviously you've forgot I also measure the pressure of my test loads. Compute the RPM for each twist barrel and you'll find the answer.

No, vzerone, I really do not expect you to compute anything or actually conduct any meaningful test even though you've been requested by myself and many others numerous times....you never have and probably never will.

A cast bullet exceeding the stress limit of the alloy can imbalance the cast bullet further and thus lower it's RPM Threshold. However, as we see by pushing a #2 alloyed cast bullet can be pushed at 52,000 psi w/o exceeding it's supposed "stress limit" and maintain excellent accuracy......if the RPM Threshold is not exceeded. The problem with the "pressure stress limit" and the reason it is not valid is that formula for calculating it (as listed in Lee's manuals and other writings) is that the formula is based on the structural stress limit of soft pure lead. We don't use soft pure lead for these velocity levels. We use ternary alloys or even alloys further enhanced with Cu and we heat treat them. That alone should have told you the stress limit of the bullets we use is much higher. The results of actual testing using fast and slower twist barrels has proven that.

The RPM threshold exists, is alive and well regardless of your disbelief. You took a stand, were proven wrong and your obvious disdain of me for being right is getting very tiresome. Can you give us a break.

[vzerone]

That is not what I mean at all.

Over the past 8+ years I have proven through sound demonstration and testing the existence of the RPM Threshold. Your continual denial and ridiculous attempts to prove me wrong without any sound testing of your own to prove otherwise is really getting ridiculous. You are trolling again. However, I will respond to your troll with facts as usual.......again.

FACTS:

Given .30 caliber barrels of 10, 12, 14 and 16" twist barrels chambered to .308W, 30x60 XCB or 30-06, the same bullet cast of the same alloy, a slower burning powder and with all other load details being the same (if you cast and load correctly) except the powder charge;

"Accuracy" is based on 10 shot groups of 1.5 moa or less at 100 yards using either the Lyman 311466 or the NOE 30 XCB 310-165-FN cast of Lyman #2 alloy.

The 10" twist barrel will lose accuracy at 1950 - 2100 +/- fps at around 28 - 30,000 psi.

The 12" twist barrel will lose accuracy at 2350 - 2450 +/- fps at around 35 - 38,000 psi.

The 14" twist barrel will lose accuracy at 2600 -2700 +/- fps at around 40 - 45,000 psi.

The 16" twist barrel will lose accuracy at 2900 - 3100+/- fps at around 49 - 52,000 psi.

Notice the bullet is the same cast of the same alloy. The pressure increases from well under the supposed "pressure limit of the alloy" to well over the supposed "pressure limit". But we see that accuracy remains the same across a spectrum of 1950 fps to 3100 +/- fps. So why is it that the 16" twist barrel can maintain the same accuracy at 3110 fps at a much higher pressure than the 10" barrel can only maintain at 2100 fps at a much lower pressure? Obviously you've forgot I also measure the pressure of my test loads. Compute the RPM for each twist barrel and you'll find the answer.

No, vzerone, I really do not expect you to compute anything or actually conduct any meaningful test even though you've been requested by myself and many others numerous times....you never have and probably never will.

A cast bullet exceeding the stress limit of the alloy can imbalance the cast bullet further and thus lower it's RPM Threshold. However, as we see by pushing a #2 alloyed cast bullet can be pushed at 52,000 psi w/o exceeding it's supposed "stress limit" and maintain excellent accuracy......if the RPM Threshold is not exceeded. The problem with the "pressure stress limit" and the reason it is not valid is that formula for calculating it (as listed in Lee's manuals and other writings) is that the formula is based on the structural stress limit of soft pure lead. We don't use soft pure lead for these velocity levels. We use ternary alloys or even alloys further enhanced with Cu and we heat treat them. That alone should have told you the stress limit of the bullets we use is much higher. The results of actual testing using fast and slower twist barrels has proven that.

The RPM threshold exists, is alive and well regardless of your disbelief. You took a stand, were proven wrong and your obvious disdain of me for being right is getting very tiresome. Can you give us a break.

Tell me Larry, how come none of the rest of us are allowed to have our theories? You came up with your theory because of your short comings. There are many that have exceeded your theory, how did they do it? You've admitted yourself that if a bullet starts straight in the bore and has no defects (and I'll add that the load doesn't exceed the alloy's limits) that rpm doesn't affect it. Do basically you're saying that all of us don't start the bullet straight and we have defective bullets!

That three rifle test of yours is a joke and you very well know the reasons.

[Larry Gibson]

You're certainly entitled to and can have all the theories you want. Eight + years ago, on this forum, when I proposed it was too much RPM that hindered high velocity with cast bullets I was told to prove it. I have proved it and everyone here proves it all the time when they load cast bullets to accuracy loss. You've failed to disprove the RPM Threshold (once proven it's no longer a theory btw) let alone proven any of your own "theories".

It's when you put words in my mouth, as you did in post #19, in which you're telling me what you want me to mean that you are crossing the line. I will call you every time on that transgression.

The only reason you think my test(s....there were a lot of them in more than three rifles) is a joke is because you can't disprove it. The joke is on you so just keep trolling.........the more you troll the more everyone knows who you really are.

[vzerone]

You certainly won't told by me or any of my friends to prove it. Three different rifles, different stocks, different barrels, different barrel dimensions, different stock bedding, human error in shooting them. Now if you had three barrels from the same manufacture and metal stock affixed to a testing fixture, then you'd be talking, butyou didn't. Three of those make, model, and caliber also may have shot different. Then there's your reloading. I don't believe for one second you can load high velocity in a fast twist. Now don't bring up your special purposely built rifle with the high dollar match quality barrel with a special bullet to fit that specific throat that you had the reamer cut for and very very hard alloy. Let's see you do it with a standard off the shelf rifle. I and others would say your tests are very slanted.

As for proving many of us have done it. Too bad we don't have a fancy Oehler and strain gauge like you huh? A man's word wasn't good enough. Remember back in those days of arguing how you and your constitutes wanted to actaully go to starmetal's house and watch him shoot?

[Larry Gibson]

"three barrels from the same manufacture and metal stock affixed to a testing fixture"

You, and your twin, seem to think that makes a difference. You still can't comprehend the difference between direct comparison of accuracy between rifles and comparative accuracy loss at what RPM. When have you, your twin and "other's" had the same "barrels from the same manufacture and metal stock affixed to a testing fixture" when even comparing accuracy? You haven't......no one does......we compare results of one rifle to others even if of difference make. The test was to determine where each twist barrel lost accuracy with the same load only varying the powder charge. The test was not comparing the best accuracy possible as compared to the other rifles. You, your twin and "other's" have never been able to comprehend that simple fact. Point is the RPM Threshold is the same for each twist regardless of whether they are different make, custom or off the shelf.

In my original .308W RPM tests the three rifles used all had "off the shelf" barrels; an Adams and Bennett $89.95 Midway special 10" twist, a Winchester factory rifle with 12" twist bought off the shelf and a Schultz & Larson of the shelf factory barrel with 14" twist. None of them had custom barrels. They were used with off the shelf Lyman moulds of 311291, 311466, 311041 and 311299 persuasion.

I use three 30-06 test rifles all with 24" barrels; an Adams & Bennett 24" $89.95 Midway special (bought the same time the .308W barrel was bought), a Winchester M70 with factory 24" barrel and a M1903A1 National Match Type II with 24" RA barrel made in 9-43. The same Lyman 311291, 311041, 311466 and 311299 were used in those test. None of those had a custom barrel by any means.

None of those barrels had a throat cut to fit any of those bullets.

The 16" twist 30x60 rifle, DAWN, has a custom Broughton barrel. The throat is cut to fit the 30 XCB cast bullet. However, I have also tested the Lyman 311466, 311465, 311041 and the 311359 in it. And guess what? Accuracy goes south with all of them just where the RPM Threshold predicted it would just the same as with all the other twist barrels.....around 140,000 RPM +/-. However, with the 16" twist that RPM is found at 2900 - 3200 fps.

The type of action has nothing to do with how the RPM affects the bullet in flight. To attest it does is ludicrous. The test rifles actions were four M98 actions, two M70 actions (one PF and one CRF) and one M1903 action. None of them hardly "custom" actions.

Now, if you'd care to disprove my tests then you, your twin and "friends" are certainly free to buy your own "three barrels from the same manufacture" (of 10, 12 and 14" twist), bed them in an identical "metal stock affixed to a testing fixture" and conduct the same level of testing I did to demonstrate at what RPM accuracy is lost working up with the same load in each rifle. Trying to prove which barrel is the most accurate is not the test, just in case you forgot again. Then you can logically make an argument, if the results are different, that my test wasn't valid. The test results, should you comply, will not be different though.

Oh yes, myself and numerous others asked "starmetal" and 45 2.1 to go to their ranges to observe their claimed fantastic feats of high velocity cast bullet accuracy. We even offered to meet them at any range, anywhere but neither would agree to it.....gee, should we wonder why.......?

I also agreed to let either or both of them come here to observe my testing and actual feats of accuracy at high velocity with cast bullets. Neither came.....others have come and have attested to what I've done on this forum. I extend the same invitation to you.

[vzerone]

You missed the point of the barrel test setup I mentioned. It eliminates the variables. Let me ask you this. If you were testing and I was there would you let me put a folded business card under one of the slow twist barrels? The stock alone can influence the group size.

I've seen a lot of 308W blow your theory out of the water. Starmetal's 6.5 Swede shooting with the Kurtz bullet with a small charge of Accurate 4350 and buffer blew away your theory. But of course with your bullying you called him a liar. Then you performed a Swede test (which I still believe you blew on purpose) and you failed miserably. If you remember the load given to you was something like 30 some grains of that 4350, but yet in your test you were loading top jacketed bullet charges!! Remember that? Why in the world would you have done that when the load you were given was almost half of that?Then you didn't have a regular genuine Swede. Something about an NOS barrel on a Mexican action? I'll give you the Mauser action won't make a difference, but if I remember correctly even Dutch didn't agree with the barrel's chamber. Fact is you couldn't get the Swede to shoot high velocity small groups.

You've (and your minions) have bullied quite a few people off this forum. More then likely that will happen to me.

[Larry Gibson]

That's so straight out of starmetal's playbook you cease to fool anyone.

Since you still so blatantly miss the point of the test and since I've explained it so many times to you, 45 2.1 and "other's" in the last 8+ years I'll be somewhat blunt. The point of the test is not to shoot the smallest group comparing the accuracy of one barrel against the others. Can you understand that?

The point of the test is to determine the velocity/RPM where the accuracy of each individual rifle begins to get worse than that rifles accuracy potential with that load. That is done using the same bullet/load in all three barrels, starting at around 100,000 RPM in each rifle/barrel, by increasing the powder charge until the accuracy worsens with unaccounted for flyers (an indication the load is exceeding the RPM Threshold) measurably increasing the group size. We're now using 10 shot groups btw.

That one rifle is capable of moa accuracy, another of 1.5 moa accuracy and another only 2 moa accuracy (just figuratively speaking) is not germane to the test. The test is to find at what is the highest velocity/RPM the moa rifle begins to shoot larger than moa, the 1.5 moa rifle shoots larger than 1.5 moa and the highest velocity/RPM the 2 moa rifle shoots larger than 2 moa. Can You understand that simple concept? It is not about comparing the accuracy of one rifle to another. The test is about determining at what velocity/RPM each individual rifle loses accuracy.

As to the rest of your post it is indeed all lies. Neither you nor 45 2.1 ever proved to anyone your bodacious 2400+ fps accuracy claims with the Swede. I never called anyone a liar in either of those two 6.5 Swede threads. I also did not fail miserably withy my own bullets. However, if you'd like me to post a picture of the very poorly cast Kurtz bullets you sent me to test I can? I did in fact "fail miserably" with your bullets. Yeah you walked that lame excuse for bullets back but I've still got your emails telling me you'd send your best. If you didn't send your best but purposely sent bad ones so I would fail...... then guess what that makes you?

I was using the exact charge of 4350 both you and 45 2.1 advised to use. Anyone reading those two 6.5 Swede threads will see that. I bent over backwards to follow your and 45 2.1s exact instructions on what to use. Stating "but yet in your test you were loading top jacketed bullet charges" is not true and is absolutely false...... so guess what that makes you? The testing was not only done in the Mexican M98 with a genuine new Swede 6.5 barrel milsurp barrel on it with the milsurp chamber it came with but testing was also done with two M36s and a M96. No the action made no difference and Dutch didn't see the rifle let alone the chamber so he knew nothing about it. Fact is I did get pretty good groups at 2100 fps out od the M96 with the load you and 45 2.1 said would do 2400+ fps. The load both you and 45 2.1 never lived up to the claims of velocities in any 6.5 Swede rifle. Your 6.5 Swede load fell 300+ fps short of what you claimed. That was out of four different 6.5 Swede rifles. Kind of makes you look like a..... guess what?

As to "bullying quite a few people off this forum" I doubt that. I was told by several of those who left "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" when I objected to the treatment many of those handed out to me and several "of my minions", who have also left this forum. Seems, once I proved the RPM Threshold was real the ones your talking about left on their own.......apparently couldn't stand the heat or was it embarrassment? Some others left or were banned for other reasons than me.

So, why don't you go take a couple Gavascon and get over your heartburn. Then get those three barrels and prove me wrong.....try doing something constructive......

[vzerone]

All the test material is in the threads that still exist. So yes it is out of starmetal's playbook. Gee that plus don't you think we talk about this stuff being we're in the same neck of the woods? BTW I have two sisters, but we're not twins or triplets so quit refering to starmetal as my twin or I'll have to call someone as your twin capiche?

None of us saw your Mexican Swede, but from the dimensions you gave of the chamber and throat, inaddition to the multiple sizings you did to the bullet no wonder it didn't shoot. Remember that?

Apparently you memory is getting foggy because you shot a variety of different charges and giving us all the pressures of them along with the velocities and the top one was definitely a jacketed load.

I also I didn't send you Kurtz bullets as that was starmetal. I wasn't living where I'm at now at that time. I believe he told you all about those bullets he sent you.

[JMax]

I do not have the experience that Larry has amassed but 6.5 Swede in my Norwegian Krag made in 1916 and my 03 made in 1934 both exhibit accuracy loss as my loads approach 140,000 RPM. I have had similar results in my 7.62 x30 CZ. That threshold certainly matches my experience.

[Larry Gibson]

You're right, it is all in those threads.....perhaps you should reread them before you regurgitate falsehoods.

And just exactly like starmetal you just ignore the fact that you should conduct your own tests..........are you ordering those three 10, 12 and 14" twist barrels along with the metal stock and fixed test fixture? Don't bother answering....we all know the answer...........perhaps you'd like to repost that cropped picture?

[vzerone]

Nope I'm sure not, too much money just to furtherprove you wrong. Yes we are alike in that fashion because for one thing we know you wouldn't believe it. Or would you, as starmetal said you told him, say we had three exceptional rifles? By that I mean many of us have been doing it all along with the fast twist barrels. But I'll tell you what a few of us may do and that is to have a special AR 15 barrel made with deeper rifling to our specifications and with a 7 twist.

[james nicholson]

I am on Larry's side.

[vzerone]

I am on Larry's side.

This isn't a NFL football game. This is a forum to talk about our hobby and help others to enjoy it.

[oldblinddog]

I have duplicated Larry's results in my 1-12" twist .308 Win. as he posted here: http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index....pic,533.0.html That is how real science works, you post your results for peer review and your peers attempt to duplicate or refute your findings. I have duplicated them. Larry is correct. Moreover, he is actually conducting scientific experimentation.





The rifle used is a 2014 Remington 700 action that is not blueprinted, with a Krieger 1-12" twist barrel that is of Remington Varmint contour. It has a saami .308 Winchester chamber. It is bolted into a McMillan M40A1 stock (not glass bedded). The groups shown were fired with a bullet cast from an alloy created from Rotometals Hardball mixed with Rotometals 1-16 tin to lead creating an alloy that is approximately 97/3.5/3.5 and air cooled. The mould was an ACCURATE 31-160G single cavity. The load is 44.2 grains of RL22. COAL is 2.600". The rpm at the high of 2440 fps is 146,400.

Here is a group fired with this rifle using the Sierra 168 gr BTHP Match bullet over 41.0 grs of AR-Comp at 100 yards. COAL 2.800" Rem case, Rem 9 1/2 primer.



That's ten shots. The flyer was my fault.

[runfiverun]

that RL-22 load is real close to my 4831 load in the 10 twist 308 I use, but with a slightly heavier bullet.
I was using RL-22 too but only mentioned that in the XCB thread.

[oldblinddog]

It is my understanding that RL22 is MRP or an equivalent. It woks very well in several applications.

[runfiverun]

it does I have started some work with it in the 0-6 too.
I kind of wanted to stay with RL-19 but the 22 had a higher load density and longer burn curve.


I notice in post 22 that the accuracy fell off at different pressure values.
I guess none of those bullets had any slump or other problems to over come up to that point in time.
I was planning on using the XCB boolit in the 0-6 for some long [for cast] range hunting instead of the flatter nosed 165-A but it looks like I won't possibly be able to pull it off.

[swheeler]

I have duplicated Larry's results in my 1-12" twist .308 Win. as he posted here: http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index....pic,533.0.html That is how real science works, you post your results for peer review and your peers attempt to duplicate or refute your findings. I have duplicated them. Larry is correct. Moreover, he is actually conducting scientific experimentation.





The rifle used is a 2014 Remington 700 action that is not blueprinted, with a Krieger 1-12" twist barrel that is of Remington Varmint contour. It has a saami .308 Winchester chamber. It is bolted into a McMillan M40A1 stock (not glass bedded). The groups shown were fired with a bullet cast from an alloy created from Rotometals Hardball mixed with Rotometals 1-16 tin to lead creating an alloy that is approximately 97/3.5/3.5 and air cooled. The mould was an ACCURATE 31-160G single cavity. The load is 44.2 grains of RL22. COAL is 2.600". The rpm at the high of 2440 fps is 146,400.

Here is a group fired with this rifle using the Sierra 168 gr BTHP Match bullet over 41.0 grs of AR-Comp at 100 yards. COAL 2.800" Rem case, Rem 9 1/2 primer.



That's ten shots. The flyer was my fault.

Very nice, thanks for posting targets and data, and yes the RPM threshold is real. I noticed the 130+ fps ES and 50+ sd with this excellent 100 yard accuracy, I have found the same many times and would bet you equal the moa accuracy out to 300 yards, well within hunting range. Just days ago someone posted ES and SD on load and I told him to worry about accuracy first and numbers second, a couple resident exspurts said he had to have single digit numbers to even start to get hunting accuracy, I'm still laughing about that one! Yes I believe RL 22 is just MRP by another name, for that matter so was the now discontinued WXR(or whatever they called the extruded rifle powder of a couple decades ago) powder. Good shooting and thanks for posting.

[Pb4me]

Hello gunfreak25..........back to the good old Argentine.

My notes show that on 12/26/13, I tried the following:
Lyman 314299 cast of wheel weights and quenchd.
18.5 grains of SR4759 (for those that still have it)
Winchester primer (standard)
Over all length 2.882 inch
Chronograph: first group, 1588, 1615, 1614. Second group, 1649, 1582, 1636. Extreme spread was 27.35 and standard deviation was 15.39 and neither is very bad.
Cases were formed from used 25.06 cases.

Shot 1 and 5/8 inch group at 100 yards.
Reference sight setting: 400 sight setting hit dead on at 50 yards and about 4 inches low at 100. The 700 sight setting hit about 18 inches high at 100 while I was figuring out where to sight for this load. Bullets were sized to .312 with homemade lube and now is plain bees wax. It's usually warm or hot here.

I hope this information is helpful. Now back to the fighting.